Playing lots of pots. Ideal VPIP?

[zipocool]

I'm curious what people think on this subject. My limited observation is that there are three obviously exploitable types of players out there. Maniacs, which can make a person sweat a bit, but are ultimately super profitable, calling stations, which are way less stress as long as you don't try to run bluffs on them, and nits.

The best players tend to see lots of pots. Now obviously I'm not playing at the same level as them. I try to have a general understanding of GTO, but I really lean into playing a maximally exploitative game. Here's the main point though. Doesn't playing more pots reveal exploitable tendencies?

For example, I had a guy on my immediate right who limped with all cards (strong and weak) and literally played every pot (except a few while he reloaded when he busted). It threw lots of players for a loop, me included at first, because you couldn't range him at all. He could literally have any two cards. He took lots of decent sized pots on uncoordinated boards with weird 2-pairs like eights and threes. Honestly, I just changed my preflop raising and 3 betting to being entirely linear in bet size, and with premium preflop hands, would raise 40 or 50 BB (yes, he called those too). That eventually busted him.

Anyway, the point is, once I understood his preflop pattern, it took a minute to think through how to exploit it, but it was obviously super-exploitable. I've seen people suggest that a VPIP as low as 20 is ideal, but that strikes me as excessively tight. I tend to be over 25 but under 30 (I mostly play 6max). I'm personally comfortable in that range. As per my last example, a high VPIP is hard to range, but it's exploitable. A low VPIP is super easy to range. So what's the ideal VPIP, all things considered?

maniacs are of course the most complex, they are almost impossible to exploit and even if you have a strong hand you are not immune from a bad beat, it is much easier with other categories of players, in general, aggression plays a very significant role in poker, some technical mistakes of a player can be compensated by his constant aggression

 

[dreamer13]

When analyzing the VPIP score, consider the following:
this percentage of hands the player plays from all positions;
the same player will have more of it at a short (6-max) table than at a (full-ring) full one;
the most objective statistics will be after playing at least 100 hands.
Thus, VPIP in poker is an opportunity to learn the player's style already at the initial stage of the game and use its features to build a winning strategy.

 

[Dobbler1]

maniacs are of course the most complex, they are almost impossible to exploit and even if you have a strong hand you are not immune from a bad beat, it is much easier with other categories of players, in general, aggression plays a very significant role in poker, some technical mistakes of a player can be compensated by his constant aggression

I disagree that maniacs aren't exploitable. Over time I've found maniacs to be the most profitable players to play against. Any player that deviates from mathematically optimal play is exploitable.

 

[oleg8519]

real vpip in a cash game I think 40 percent or more

 

[liuouhgkres]

pros at 50z-100z play with stats starting from 20/18 to 24/22 at 6 max games. So try to aim somewhere along this lines. 25+ is too loose imho.

 

[ratbat615]

I don’t really use huds but it’s a good idea I just try to take advantage of crazy 😜 players.

 

[spunka]

Vip for 9H tables is around 20 - 24
Vip for 6H tables is around 25 - 30
Vip for HU is then ?
with fewer players the higher VIP

 

[dallam]

"The best players tend to see lots of pots."

I would rather say the best players tend to see enough pots to make them winners. It's better when your cards decide in which cases you see more or less.

 

[Rockyfour]

You don't want to play 25-30% because you are setting yourself to

Can you be more specific? Am I mistaken when I say that some of the best, world class players have quite high VPIP in deep stack cash games? Why do you believe that range is ideal? How is a higher VPIP exploited by good players?

World class players are only playing that way for a variety of reasons unrelated to optimal play.

1) They have very good reading abilities
2) They are in a private game and the fish they are playing with won't invite them back if they nit it up
3) They are given a freeroll essentially to play on TV and are expected to make things interesting
4) People don't find watching a tight reg playing standard as entertaining as a Phil Helmuth doing all sorts of weird plays to exploit a recreational player so nobody ends up talking about them or paying attention and therefore they are never really commended for being 'world class'

 

[rastapapolos]

For me, I think the Optimal vpip in cash game is around 18-24%. In tournaments it depends on a lot of factors, so no clear answer.

 

[coolDadJimbo]

to me vpip is more of a quick general impression of your opponent. it is really a summation of all moves (2bets, cold calls, 3bets, call 3bets, etc) over all positions. if your opponent has a vpip of 40+ you can safely assume they are pretty fishy. it would take a deeper look at each play by position to classify them further. ie, aggressive, passive, etc

when assesing your own game you should focus on your rfi by position as well as your calling range by position. they are the important ingredients that make up vpip.
these can also be used to study your opponent. i have sevearal popups that break down stats by position.

for microstakes an ideal rfi by position would look like:
ep 12%
mp 18.5%
co 25%
btn/sb 65%
this might give you an overall rfi/vpip of 30%

compared to:
ep 30%
mp 30%
co 30%
btn/sb 30%
this could give you an overall rfi/vpip of 30% as well, but we can see that their range is too loose in early position and too tight in late position.

now, if you further factor in the various precentages at each position of call 2bets, 3bet, call 3bets, limps, etc you will get VPIP. so, you can see that vpip alone isn't a good stat to measure performance.

the most important stat when assesing your game is winrate.

hope this helps

rock on superstar

 

[Jantorres888]

I love being unpredictable and changing my style of play. It depends on the format where I prefer tournaments. At the beginning, you should have about 30% vpip, and in later stages it should drop to somewhere around 15-20% as payouts increase. I hope this helps.

Thanks. I use this tactic in MTT tournaments. It has proven to be a good one.

 

[Jantorres888]

for me, vpip is more of a quick overall impression of your opponent. It's actually the sum of all moves (2-betas, cold calls, 3-bets, call 3bets, etc.) across all positions. if your opponent has vpip 40+, you can safely assume that he is quite suspicious. it would be more of a look at each game by position to categorize them further. i.e. aggressive, passive, etc.

When evaluating your game, you should focus on your rfi by position as well as on your call range by position. these are the important ingredients that make up vpip.
They can also be used to study your opponent. I have several pop-ups that break down statistics by position.

for microlimits, the ideal RFI by position would look like this:
ep 12%
i.e. 18.5%
from 25%
bn/sb 65%
it can give you a total RFI/VPIP of 30%

compared to:
ep 30%
i.e. 30%
from 30%
bn/sb 30%
this could also give you an overall rfi/vpip ratio of 30%, but we can see that their range is too loose in the early position and too tight in the late position.

Now, if you additionally take into account the different percentages in each 2-bet, 3-bet, call 3-bet, limp, etc., you will get VPIP. So you can see that vpip alone is not a good statistic for measuring performance.

The most important metric when evaluating your game is your win rate.

hope this helps

superstar rock

Thanks. Interesting information.

 

[skulij]

For your optimal VPIP just look at the VPIP you have when you are in the money (I only play tourneys). I have found when I'm ITM with shorter stack I have VPIP of 16-20 and when I have a bigger stack it's 20-22. But obviously when playing VPIP means zero, there are a million reasons to play less hands and ten million reasons to play more and every hand is a seperate opportunity. I look at VPIP after I'm out, if I see 35 I know I need to tighten up a bit, if I see 14 it's what the hell was I thinking but when I'm playing I don't look at it too much except to see what other players may be thinking, maybe bluff with low VPIP since they think you're tight etc.

 

[exer888]

I would say about 20 is perfect. But depends on stakes i belive.

 

[Jantorres888]

To determine your optimal VPIP, just look at the VPIP you have when you're in the money (I only play tournaments). I've found that when I'm playing ITM with a shorter stack, I have a VPIP of 16-20, and when I have a larger stack it's 20-22. But obviously, when VPIP means zero, there are a million reasons to play fewer hands and ten million reasons to play more, and each hand is a separate opportunity. I look at VPIP after I exit the game, if I see 35 I know I need to catch up a little bit, if I see 14 it's what the hell I was thinking about, but when I'm playing I don't look at it too much except to see what other players might think, maybe bluff with a low VPIP since they think you're Tits, etc.

But sometimes you don't have a good hand throughout the tournament. Or vice versa. There are a lot of good rui, and then these indicators cannot be considered optimal.

 

[lukaszkrzi]

VPIP, or Voluntarily Put Money In Pot, is a statistic that measures how often a player is putting money in the pot preflop. It's generally considered to be a good indicator of a player's overall tightness or looseness.

In general, a VPIP of around 20 is considered to be tight, while a VPIP of 30 or higher is considered to be loose. However, the ideal VPIP will depend on the player's overall strategy and the specific table dynamics.

It's true that a high VPIP can make it harder to range a player, but it also makes them more exploitable, as you pointed out. A player with a high VPIP will often play a wide range of hands, which can be taken advantage of by a more skilled player.

On the other hand, a low VPIP can make a player easier to range, but it also makes them less exploitable, as they are likely only playing strong hands.

Ultimately, the key is to find a balance that works for you and allows you to play your best game. If you are comfortable with a VPIP of 25-30 and it is working for you, then that may be the ideal range for you.