Playing Hidden sets

Effexor

Effexor

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Here's the situation:

Very early in a $10+1, single table SNG. Everyone has between 1400 and 1600 chips, basically even.

Blinds are 15/30

I'm UTG and pick up QQ, raise it to 150 and both the SB and BB call, everyone else folds, so I'd be in position for the rest of the hand.

Flop is Q, 5, 2 rainbow.

SB checks
BB checks

Do you slowplay or bet this out? Is it worth it at this point in the SNG to risk giving people free cards or do you just make the usual c-bet type bet and be happy with the 450 chips.


My brother in law and I are polar opposite in opinion. He contends that you only get a limited number of really good hands, and you need to try and milk those few hands for every chip you can. Maybe let someone playing AK catch an ace for example. I am of the opinion thats it's best to bet out at least like 2/3 to 3/4 size pot and be happy when they fold.

What do you all 'typically' do, I know mixing up your play and all that, but we all have standard type plays we make in given situations, so whats your standard play here.
 
heatfan03

heatfan03

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Here's the situation:

Very early in a $10+1, single table SNG. Everyone has between 1400 and 1600 chips, basically even.

Blinds are 15/30

I'm UTG and pick up QQ, raise it to 150 and both the SB and BB call, everyone else folds, so I'd be in position for the rest of the hand.

Flop is Q, 5, 2 rainbow.

SB checks
BB checks

Do you slowplay or bet this out? Is it worth it at this point in the SNG to risk giving people free cards or do you just make the usual c-bet type bet and be happy with the 450 chips.


My brother in law and I are polar opposite in opinion. He contends that you only get a limited number of really good hands, and you need to try and milk those few hands for every chip you can. Maybe let someone playing AK catch an ace for example. I am of the opinion thats it's best to bet out at least like 2/3 to 3/4 size pot and be happy when they fold.

What do you all 'typically' do, I know mixing up your play and all that, but we all have standard type plays we make in given situations, so whats your standard play here.

Tough situation. like u said mixing up play is what i would do but i base that mixing of play on reads. Unfortunately sounds like you dont have any reads early on in a SitNGO. With that type of flop its very unlikely either of them hit anything. If they had Aces or Kings they would most likely have raised on the preflop so i think it would be a safe bet to throw either a very small min raise or a check. Most likely the only way either of them can beat you is with runner runner. (K K ) or (A A if they are holding a high card. ) So when the turn hits if its a K A or a J bet a pot sized bet and they will most likely fold. Honestly though i dont think you will get much out of this pot at all.
SUMMARY : (i kinda just rambled on a bit there my main point is Be happy with the 450 chips i doubt you will get anything out so throw a small bet on the flop and then a bigger bet to take it down on the turn)
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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This is pretty clearly a spot where you can slowplay: no real draws, no real strength shown by you opponents. You need to let them catch up to a second best card, or to induce a bluff here in order to get any more chips.
 
eyetrace

eyetrace

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In any type of tournament the only objective is to aquire chips, I know that sounds obvious, but you need to mix up play to get the most out of every hand. If this was a ring game, I might just take a stab at the pot just in case, sickest situation, someone called a raise in the BB with A3. unlikely. In a Tourney you need to take that chance to cripple a player by pretending that that Q diddn't hit you. I think if someone catches a monster you should be able to tell if someone hits a straigh just on how they bet out when a four or a three comes off. Once again unlikely, but it happens. I say slow play.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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I actually put out a standard bet on that flop UTG. Maybe just under half the pot. This serves a few purposes:
  • It doesn't give a free card, but makes it enticing to chase.
  • It gets more money in the pot for me to win when I lower the boom on the turn.
  • It is easy to duplicate as a C-bet in the future when I don't hit anything at all. I can bluff with the same sized bet, but they'll remember my set of Q's and possibly fold (must show to set this up).
 
M

mischman

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I slow play this. There are few draws(shouldnt be any with a UTG PF raise).

Also, we have top set with 2 baby rag cards, odds are they missed the board. Had i had 22 on a K82 board in the same situation, i would bet because there is a better chance they hit the board and will pay it off
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Like AG said, this is pretty much the ideal flop for a slowplay; no legit draws (unless someone's messing around with a baby ace, or some weird small connectors and has now picked up a straight draw), and a very small chance of getting outdrawn.

I'd probably be more inclined to toss out a bet if we're sitting at a ring game rather than a STT because we're sitting deeper, and we'd end up losing more if we let our opponents see a free card. I'd do this especially if I'd shown a lot of c-bets in the past.

  • It is easy to duplicate as a C-bet in the future when I don't hit anything at all. I can bluff with the same sized bet, but they'll remember my set of Q's and possibly fold (must show to set this up).


I completely understand what you mean, Stick, but I don't think metagame should factor in as much here in an STT as it would with a ring game. We're only going to be at this table for so long, and metagame shouldn't take priority over winning chips. I used to have a pretty big hole in my game, and that was worrying too much about my table image. I never limped in the early stages of a STT, and tried to make sure that I was never caught c-betting since I thought it would ruin my image for the rest of the game. Your friendly neighborhood donk isn't even observant enough to give a **** though :)

I think we can go either way, though. This also depends on our opponents' playing styles. ex: If we're against two calling stations, then by all means bet away. If we're against a TAG who won't put any more money in with his unimproved AK, for example, then maybe wait for the turn to give him a chance to pick up enough of a hand to stick around.
 
J

joeeagles

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I think you don't really get chances better than this to slowplay. There really aren't draws out there and you need to hope someone catches something in order to get value out of this huge hand. After hitting a set it would be a half disaster if all you get is the 450. If you bet now you'll likely get 2 folds because they clearly missed this board with 2 rags and you having 2 Q's. You might get an AK to chase, but I doubt it.

Check and hope to get more somehow, don't be happy with the 450.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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play this the same way you would of played ever single other hand. If you have been C-betting flops then again C-bet this one. If you had been checking a lot of flops then check this one. The best way to hide it is to play it like you have played any other flop.


If you just check this after you had been c-betting every other flop dont you think that is going to look a little obvious. It would be like wait this flop is dry so why didnt he C-bet, he must have monster.
 
B

bw07507

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play this the same way you would of played ever single other hand. If you have been C-betting flops then again C-bet this one. If you had been checking a lot of flops then check this one. The best way to hide it is to play it like you have played any other flop.


If you just check this after you had been c-betting every other flop dont you think that is going to look a little obvious. It would be like wait this flop is dry so why didnt he C-bet, he must have monster.

I totally agree with this if we are playing against good players who are attentive and playing the table, not just their cards, but from my experience in a 10+1 SnG, most players dont even pay attention to things like this and I would probably check this unless I knew that my opponents were calling stations, hoping an Ace or King comes on the turn.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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play this the same way you would of played ever single other hand. If you have been C-betting flops then again C-bet this one. If you had been checking a lot of flops then check this one. The best way to hide it is to play it like you have played any other flop.


If you just check this after you had been c-betting every other flop dont you think that is going to look a little obvious. It would be like wait this flop is dry so why didnt he C-bet, he must have monster.


The only problem is everyone is going to fold here (most likely).
Also, there may be spots in the future where you do want to check for other reasons-- here your opponents can learn that a check doesn't mean "take it".

Here we meet all Skansky's criteria of slowplaying (from Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players):
1. our hand is very strong
2. you will probably chase everyone out by betting
3. the free card has good possibility to help make a second best hand
4. free card has little chance of outdrawing you
5. the pot is not that large
 
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J

joeeagles

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The only problem is everyone is going to fold here (most likely).
Also, there may be spots in the future where you do want to check for other reasons-- here your opponents can learn that a check doesn't mean "take it".


Good point. I don't think its a good idea whatever you've done in the hands before, plus its fine to mix it up.

But what really is important here is to try to get paid off, that is your goal and checking is the only way to attempt that.
 
jaymfc

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well i thought the other way bet and make them pay if they called the 150 preflop maybe they will chase,plus you still have lots of lag players in those sngs so who know what they may have , but after reading i agree that a check may make them put you on a lesser hand and may pay you off if they get a piece of the turn. or are hiding the piece of the flop they got ,just checking to the raiser waiting for a sign of weakness.lol im rambling now , slo playyyyyyy
 
A

admb0m

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I just slowplayed a set of kings. When I "lowered the boom" on the turn, the pot was about 25 bucks and I bet about 25. They guy calls with bottom pair and a gutshot. He straighten up and really "gutshot" me. I'm still sick to my stomach. But I accept the risk of slowplaying. It has seemed to make me more that it loses me, but I don't know that for sure.
 
K

Klazier

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I would slowpaly. Like someone said above, let them get a pair and let them bet more, that way you will earn more profit. Three of a kind if a pretty solid hand.
 
reglardave

reglardave

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I think that check/call i the play here for sure. If both blinds called, I'm giving them credit for better hands than 3-4, which would pose the only real threat at this point. Even supposing they hit 2 pair(unlikely), there's no threat in it to you. You won't get a better spot to slowplay, prolly ever. Plus, giving them a chance to posture if they're inclined contributes information to your read on these players. The only remots possibility would be a blind calling with an A3-A4, so the turn bears some watching, but still a great case for slow playing here.
 
blankoblanco

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This is really a clear spot to slowplay. This isn't some high stakes game with multi-level thinking where you're Phil Ivey and have to bet when checked to because anything less would arise suspicion. It's a $10+$1 donk n go. There's one queen left in the deck and it's very unlikely the other players have it. If an A or K makes a pair on the turn, you can often get their stacks in one of these, but if you bet now they'll fold.

Plus if anyone have pocket pairs under a Q, you're unlikely to get three streets of value from it anyway, so it's not like you're missing out on much from them.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Check to give them a free card and hope it hits them, if it doesn't and they still all check, I'd put out a 1/2 pot bet that looks like a steal attempt. If they fold, so be it, we weren't going to get any more money out of this anyway (SB and BB calling the raise looks like suited cards hoping to catch). If somebody had mid pp, they would've bet this, as anyone holding AK would at this level.
 
Y

young hova

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I'd slow play this one, this is probably a situation where your either your going to get paid good or your not going to at all, this isn't particularly a good flop.

If you've got aggressive players in the pot that you know might check raise you I would bet, but the thing here is you raised 5x the bb, basically saying your looking to invest a considerable percentage of your stack on this play, so if you bet this flop they're going to most liekly put you on pairs of jacks or betters, aq and possibly ak continuation. Most likely no ones going to have a queen since you got 3 of em, so I think you HAVE to check this flop than firing a probing bet on any card under the queen (hoping to get check-raised) and fire a sizeable bet to the king or ace and hope that one of them have that card cus if they do they'll probably call.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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both these players called your 120 preflop bet, you flopped a set on a non scary board, slowplay this, if these two are standard TAG players, then they may be holding AA, KK, AK-A10 or any PP and with this board, it is not likely that they have hit anything and any bet will scare them off, so check down to the river and bet the river about 1/4 - 1/2 pot and smooth call all bets before the river if you need to.
 
B

BearCan

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seems slowplay is the majority opinion but I'm going to give an totally different answer.

limp bet. get some chips into the pot and make them think your weak or
doing a donkey bluff. this is a perfect time to place a bet for information
on what they have. if they raise, fold. if they call, limp bet again on the turn
and river, do not lower the boom unless your last and frankly i would take the limp bets and run.
 
Marklar

Marklar

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i have to bet here. not because im protecting my hand but because I think choosing not continuation bet after raising preflop is way to suspicious. I would say to try and bet timidly. Make it appear that you have jacks or tens so that maybe someone will try to bluff you off of them. Kind of a longshot but it happens.
 
Effexor

Effexor

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Bumping this for 2 reasons:
(1) to post the result
(2) to revisit another example

In the example in the OP, I checked the flop. Turn was a 4. I bet, he raised, I pushed, and he showed A3 for a straight.

Here's another hand, Do you slow play this one?


full tilt poker Game #3219921959: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (24618727), Table 1 - 30/60 - No Limit

Hold'em - 11:35:46 ET - 2007/08/11
Seat 3: Effexor (2,920)
Seat 4: JDizzy4 (1,765)
Seat 5: f_in_hgs (705)
Seat 6: Iuz the Old (2,775)
Seat 7: Phid89 (2,795)
Seat 8: BCKACI (950)
Seat 9: Clast (1,590)
f_in_hgs posts the small blind of 30
Iuz the Old posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Effexor [Qh Qc]
Phid89 folds
BCKACI calls 60
Clast folds
Effexor raises to 180
JDizzy4 folds
f_in_hgs folds
Iuz the Old folds
BCKACI calls 120
*** FLOP *** [5s 9d Qs]

With 2 spades on the board, do you allow a free card?
 
Chiefer

Chiefer

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you raised UTG which you should have done, everyone folds but the blinds. now it's obvious that you have a decent starting hand. calling a raise at 15/30 would tell me that they might have a decent hand as well. perhaps one of them has the case Q. i see no harm in a C-bet. if i raise preflop i never check the flop. especially if i hit the hand i'm looking for. i would bet out another 150. it gives them odds to call and sweetens the pot for you. if i get one caller and the turn is not a drawing card then i bet the pot other wise i bet out another 150 or 300.

i used to slow play all the time. i find it bites me in the azz more than not. so i don't do it anymore. aggressive poker is winning poker.
 
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