My opening range is too weak-tight?

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braveslice

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My stats say: VPIP 20.11, PFR: 15.15, 3bet 5.43 this is awfully tight!!

I need some help to figure this out. I do play 6max zoom. I only realized this today. I don’t want to work too much on 3bet, but VPIP and PFR.

My opening charts say RFI: EP 12%, MP 13%, CO 24%, BU 40%, SB: 35%, BB x%
My opens database first in: EP13.4%, MP 17.7%, CO 25.7%, BU 38.3%, SB:36.7 %, BB x%
So I’m actually following the tables quite good. Following tables should give me RFI: 25%


Q1: What do I do wrong?

Q2: Also this imply that if I want to be around VPIP 24, PFR 20, I need to open 20% more hands per position?!? Making it RFI: EP 14.5%, MP 15.6%, CO 29%, BU 48%, SB: 42%, BB x%

Q3: Also this imply that VPIP 29, PRF 25 players are actually super loose?
Making it RFI: EP 18%, MP 20%, CO 36%, BU 60%, SB: 52%, BB x%

Q4: This also implies that most people I know are doing range analysis wrong based on VPIP and PFR. Agree?
 
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IPlay

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Q1. Your ranges are somewhat tight but I would say you are closer to the norm then you are tight. Seems like you could be a little looser from MP. You can also loosen up by flatting a little more on the BTN and from the BB.

Q2. Yup, stealing from SB should be especially good if you are playing zoom tables too.

Q3. Yeah they are pretty loose. I play about a 27/20 myself the last 2 months but I have been making it a point to play looser and get more comfortable post so I can move up in stakes. Although at 10NL the rake is so high that playing loose does get somewhat punished.

Q4. I'm not too sure what you mean here?
 
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Before giving my opinion, I have to say I'm mainly a full ring player, so some things I say might be a little off. But I think your topic is interesting enough that I want to share my thoughts about it.

Q1: Well to start off, where did you get those charts from? And for what stakes are they relevant? Because as long as you are a winning player, you are on the right track. No opening hands chart can take that away from you.
Preflop play isn't set in stone. There might be a 'perfect' way to play preflop, but no human being is ever going to truly achieve that. Preflop is indeed pretty important, since it's the base for all the decisions you make postflop. But I think that there are a lot of ways that you can play preflop. It depends on what fits your own style of play. As well as what stakes you are playing at, and how loose or tight your table is.
Preflop is important, but not as important to master as postflop play is. So stick to your preflop strategy if you feel like it works well, and you aren't being pushed around all the time. Also, ask yourself how relevant those charts are, and if they are, how they fit for your stakes.


Q2: Again, I have only played about 1k-5k hands of 6max, so I don't know how RFI and PFR and that stuff should vary from position to position. So your chart says you should steal 48% of hands from the button? Heck, I usually steal around 50-60% at full ring. The reason for that is the weak players that play 5nl full ring. I will play more hands from the button if the blinds are weak-tight, fold a lot to cbets, etc.
If there are lots of good 6max players at the stakes you play, then why not tighten up a little? If you feel overwhelmed then sure, just drop down in stakes. But if you can handle it, it's fine to play a little tighter that the majority.
The thing you could work on is stealing. I started widening especially my 3bet and 4bet resteal ranges, which has helped my full ring game a lot. At 6max it would obviously help even more, since the blinds come around more often, thus being a good stealer becomes important. So work on that if you feel there's a problem there.


Q3: Table selecting well will allow you to loosen up your range, since you will play against bad players more frequently. So VPIP 29 and PFR 25 might just be a sign of a player that either play at stakes where he already crushes his opponents, or uses very strict table selection, to only play against the worst players of the player pool...


...And at this point I scrolled up in your post, and read that you play zoom... so all the stuff I said about playing your opponent becomes irrelevant, because well, you don't know who your opponent is. That might be a problem in itself. From regular cash tables you get to play against all player types, and practice how to play against all of them. But in zoom you mostly play against unknowns, which doesn't build the same skill set. But if you like it, who am I to judge.
And I take it that the charts you mention are specifically for zoom? In that case I see more use of such charts, since you want to play more optimal rather than having an exploitative style of play.


I would say use your HUD to find the areas in your game where you struggle. And if you find out that it is in fact preflop you need to work on then do so.
 
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Q4: Well your PFR would be around 25% over time if nobody would ever open before you. So yeah, a 30% is loose. Not sure I understand the question either but I often look at RFI (Called Unopened preflop raise in my HUD) by position for a specific vilain, it gives a much better idea than the PFR when I want to determine how wide I want to defend my big blind for example. PFR alone isn't that interesting while the other stat is much more useful imo.
 
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There's a larger gap between your VPIP and your PFR than there should be. Call fewer raise preflop. 3 bet or fold.

If you end up at about 21/17 or 21/18 with a 3 bet of about 7 or 8, that's pretty solid preflop.
 
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braveslice

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Q1: I have no idea if the charts are wrong or right. Good or bad. Zoom or something else. There are hundreds of charts; all of them only get only negative feedback from players except the most basic ones. With these stats I’m never able to beat regs. I’m too predictable. If I can’t beat the regs I can never advance to the next level.

Q2: What kind of range is suggested for SB? Mine is: {66+, A2s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A6o+, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o} BB is complicated for me at least, I just looked the data and I get 3betted 18.6% of the time I open from BU. Against firework like that I can’t be too loose, I would imagine.

Q3: IPlay given 27% you open all aces UTG? Can you please check profitability of Axs and separately Axo from UTG?

Q4: If we look only my stats, PFR is about middle of my EP and MP. UTGrfi= 0.9*PFR , MPrfi= 1.15*PFR, CO= 1.7*PRF, BU= 2.5*PRF, SB = 2.4*PRF. So just while ago IPlays topic ‘150bbs deep’ I assigned UTG range for PFR 21.08% player to be 16%. Using the formula from my data we get his range to be 18.97% not that far but still almost 20% difference making him from predictable to unpredictable.

Table selecting was the reason I left regular, that was the most laborious part of the poker =) And so easy to automate, but the program was so expensive I had no intention to buy it and I had no time to make my own.

I haven’t figured yet how to make vpip pfr difference smaller, I don’t even call pairs every time and I hate even good suited connectors because the line with them seems to be for me call – call – fold mostly. So my mistake imo is not calling too much, and I honestly don’t know what other things can make the difference too large. I would love to get 21/17. My final number for 5NL zoom were 22/16 3bet 6.3 with hefty winrate. And yeah I do also use RFI, but all the theory is written by PRF and for some reason I have been really ignorant for the difference and also to how to transfer these number to actual ranges.

I did panic a bit too much I think :D Thx for support!!!

Btw I just run filter call preflop to find hefty leak. It was profitable first 2 months this year, but sky dive after that. Thx ;) for that too I leave my earlier comments to remind me about arrogance and not checking first talking second. NL10 call pre blind corrected -2.76bb/100.
 
IPlay

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I open all suited Ax UTG and AJo+ suited Broadway's, all pocket pairs and 87s,98s.

Also the gap in vpip is fine, you should be peeling the BB often and a gap of under 5 probably means you are folding +EV spots.
 
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braveslice

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I open all suited Ax UTG and AJo+ suited Broadway's, all pocket pairs and 87s,98s.

Also the gap in vpip is fine, you should be peeling the BB often and a gap of under 5 probably means you are folding +EV spots.
I do feel you are right.

I did fierce math expedition to see how much wider one can call from button. Only to see that the model I mistakenly used has same EV=0 than original so no difference.

Let’s try to find ‘scientifically’ if this is myth or actual reality. BB vs UTG, UTG opens 3bb 13% (tight tag), pot odds needed 30.8% ~ 31% to call. We need to give a value for OOP situation we have. So first time ever here is a try to give equity value for IP / OOP situation =) To get that value I select hand AA only, because that is the hand that is easiest to play in poker, so skill has the minimum impact to the result. Venue 5NL to 10NL zoom, AA IP OTF = 1776.73 bb/100 AI adjusted 223 hands, AA OOP OTF = 1184.71 bb/100 AI adjusted 204 hands.

So we get a formula EVoop_aa = 2/3*EViip_aa

We assume next we play both IP and OOP same number of hands (this is not quite true) to get the average EV, we call EVbase. EVbase is the number we get from the EV calculations ie pure math EV without positional information.

EVbase= (EVoop_aa + EViip_aa)/2 = (2/3*EViip_aa + EViip_aa)/2 = 5/6EViip_aa
So EViip_aa =6/5*EVbase (#1)
EVbase = 5/6EViip_aa = 5/6* EVoop_aa*3/2 = 5/4* EVoop_aa
EVoop_aa = 4/5 * EVbase (#2)

Thus we get the formulas to move from nonpositional EV to both IIP and OOP. We also drop some index letters to make it shorter. Also note that 6/5 = 1.2 and 4/5 = 0.8

EViip = 6/5*EV (#1) and
EVoop = 4/5*EV (#2)

20% sounds pretty much ok as far is micro stake player can say. So we are good this far =)
Last step is to figure what these numbers mean in EV formula level, where a and b are reasongs ev is +20%
EViip = 6/5*EV = a* x*towin – b*(1-x)*tolose


******************* NEW because to call is different ****************** To solve this we have to assume coupling between a and b. We do it by assuming that if our winning chance goes up c% our losing probability also goes down c%. Solving IIP:
EViip= 6/5*EV = (1+c)*x*(pot) – (1-c)*(1-x)*(tocall) = 6/5 * (x*(pot) – (1-x)*tocall) )
(1+c)*x*(y) – (1-c)*(1-x)*(z) = 6/5 * (x*(y) – (1-x)*z) )
(1+c)*x*(y) – (1-c)*(1-x)*(z) = 6/5 * (x*(y) – (1-x)*z) ), solve c
c= -(5 + z - x (6 y + z))/(5 (x (y - z) + z))

Test flop is 1, bet 1 , call 1, 50% eqyity, in position!

EV= 0.5*2 – 0.5*1 = 0.5, EViip= 6/5*0.5 = 0.6
c = -(5 + tocall - x (6 pot + tocall))/(5 (x (pot - tocall) + tocall))
c = -(5 + 1 – 0.5 (6* 2 + 1))/(5 (0.5 (2 - 1) + 1)) = 1/15
EViip = (1+1/15)*0.5*2-(1-1/15)*0.5*1 = 0.6 -> OK!!

Solving c in case of OOP
4/5*EV = (1-c)*x*(pot) – (1+c)*(1-x)*(tocall) = 4/5 * (x*(pot) – (1-x)*tocall) )
4/5*EV = (1-c)*x*(y) – (1+c)*(1-x)*(z) = 4/5 * (x*(y) – (1-x)*z) ) , solve c
c = (-z + x (y + z))/(5 (x (y - z) + z))
c = (-tocall + x (pot + tocall))/(5 (x (pot - tocall) + tocall))

So Test OOP:
EVoop = 4/5*0.5 = 0.4
c = (-1 + 0.5 (2 + 1))/(5 (0.5 (2 - 1) + 1)) = 1/15
EVoop = (1-1/15)*0.5*2 – (1+1/5)*0.5*1 = 0.4 OK!!!!!!!


******************
So now we should have basic tools to solve the problem tag opens utg 13% -> {44+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KQo}, what is profitable calling range given we are OOP and the hand is harder to play. Pot = 1.5 + 3 = 4.5, to call 2
c = (-2 + x (4.5 + 2))/(5 (x (4.5 - 2) + 2)) = (-0.16 + 0.52 x)/(0.8 + x)

EVoop = 0 = (1-c)*x*(4.5) – (1+c)*(1-x)*(2) = (1-(-0.16 + 0.52 x)/(0.8 + x))*x*(4.5) – (1+(-0.16 + 0.52 x)/(0.8 + x))*(1-x)*(2)
solve x, EVoop = 0 -> x= 0.308

2/6.5= 0.308 (((

Reason?, constructing equation assumes standard ev, position of zero is ****ing same. c is zero where EV is zero. Eh?!?!?!?++
 
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Right I started adding UTG all suited aces, MP all pairs.
 
Dorugremon

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My stats say: VPIP 20.11, PFR: 15.15, 3bet 5.43 this is awfully tight!!

No it isn't. That's a middle of the road TAG range. That's pretty much where you want to be. The only way to increase your VPIP is to put more trash in your range. That brings with it all sorts of problems. Either you end up folding the trash too much on the flop, opening yourself up to a double whammy: your opponents know they have profitable c-bets since they can count on your folding, and when you finally take a stand, they'll know you're very strong and won't pay you off. Either that, or the error carries over to later streets, leaving you vulnerable to being double and triple barrelled.

I need some help to figure this out. I do play 6max zoom. I only realized this today. I don’t want to work too much on 3bet, but VPIP and PFR.
Always unknown players: tight is right for this. You're not at any one table long enough for them to know this.

My opening charts say RFI: EP 12%, MP 13%, CO 24%, BU 40%, SB: 35%, BB x%
My opens database first in: EP13.4%, MP 17.7%, CO 25.7%, BU 38.3%, SB:36.7 %, BB x%
So I’m actually following the tables quite good. Following tables should give me RFI: 25%
Maybe loosen up a bit from MP. Also, don't defend the SB so much.

Q1: What do I do wrong? Nothing

Q2: Also this imply that if I want to be around VPIP 24, PFR 20, I need to open 20% more hands per position?!? Making it RFI: EP 14.5%, MP 15.6%, CO 29%, BU 48%, SB: 42%, BB x%

More garbage hands means trouble disposing with it on later streets.

Q3: Also this imply that VPIP 29, PRF 25 players are actually super loose?
Making it RFI: EP 18%, MP 20%, CO 36%, BU 60%, SB: 52%, BB x%

That's maniac stats. There are only 1,326 possible hands in this game. The bottom 30% are pretty awful, like (K,5-s). It can't make a straight, and even if it makes a one-card straight with a 5 it's probably beat, and a one card straight with a K is a probable chop. The pairs suck, and two-pair is likely to be a top and bottom that's nothing to get excited about. It's also a subnut flush draw, and you'd like to avoid those. Just don't play hands like this except for button steals: your BR will thank you for that.

Q4: This also implies that most people I know are doing range analysis wrong based on VPIP and PFR. Agree?

Don't worry about your stats beyond figuring how your opponents might adjust to them, assuming they would, and that's a big assume. Play your A game always and let the stats take care of themselves.
 
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Thx, good to hear.

Well the thing is that when I see similar villain stats than I have I mostly sight fold most of my range because this player is too value heavy and nitty.
 
Figaroo2

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Sounds to me like you're struggling to identify your leaks as much as being concerned about your opening ranges. If you have HM2 make use of the free leak buster trial. I'm not sure if there is one for PT4 I'd be surprised if there wasn't.
If you want to open up a bit I suggest doing it in position and having a 4bet bluff range nailed down to counter the extra 3betting you will face. Playing extra hands in the BB is fraught with issues and I suggest you look carefully at your stats in both blinds before changing up.
Why don't you post full position stats in the polished poker thread for John A to look at. There is some talk about ranges in the blinds in that thread at the moment. And John and I chat regularly on Skype about the game.
I know what you mean about playing SC, you have to accept you are going to have to bluff more with these hands so you need to be paying attention to who opened and are they bluffable before calling.
I'm not a fan of zoom too many aggro monkeys for me. I can beat it, but I just prefer to have more hands on players and better reads. I think your stats are ok against the zoom population as a whole. If you can't beat the regs then you need to be looking at your post flop game in more detail as well.
 
Figaroo2

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I'd also add that regs by definition are usually good players if you have any edge at all then it's going to be marginal and playing with them isn't where the money comes from so I wouldn't worry overly about that. The money comes from players who play too many hands and thus have weaker ranges that can't stand up to sustained pressure from a good tag and if your ranges start reasonably strong yourself then in the long run you should do just fine.
 
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Talking with John is very good idea Fig. It’s sometimes hard to ask though, when you know that to get an answer what is usable, the asker has to be exact. I try to figure something out.

Btw I wasn’t really asking if my stats are too tight, my question Q1 was more aimed to: given my range how to improve it. In my opinion the stats actually are too tight and yes they are standard tight regs stat but not stats for someone who advances to 25NL zoom and makes it. My rake is -6.87bb/100 so to win 10NL one needs to be quite good in openings too. I need to beat the regs too, currently I'm too easy to play against.

You mentioned 4bet, I checked stats and oh my god they were bad. I bluff 2.7x more than 4bet for value, bluffs are massive minus but overall 385bb/100. No idea if that is good or not. I handle 15% of 3bet theory and no 4bet thinking yet.

@Dorugremon I looked SB stats, it's -7bb/100 (4k hands, logically behaving graph), only position I'm happy with. Luck or not, I'm not going to change it before something drastic happens.
 
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Oh that game a bit unfriendly sorry about that. I meant no unfriendliness, 30 min is so short time for non english speking people. On the contrary I really appreciate all your answers and they are already helping me immensely.
 
Doubledunk

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If your using HM2 or PT4, try running your HH in Leak Buster? just get the free trial and see whats going wrong with your hands.
 
Bob23bk

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What is the sample size for these stats? (How many hands)

You may widen your range in 6max, and you're likely to see higher stats (less players for raises to get through, for instance)
 
Mikeisanace777

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speak english

Who cares about your stats there valid I just don't get it? Poker is simple, you know Phil Ivey doesn't ever get into math much he plays it like chess which is what you should so. Play small ball say 5-10 cash game raise to 50 with 3-5 hearts open up, then open up with 50 a-k suited,qq,jj randomize your game this is what it's all about. Raise with 5-6 off suit utg same amount one caller then a reraise,you pop it back and he reraises you call heads up big pot you can theorize he has you dominated pre... flop comes 56-10 rainbow you don't put him on 10-10 probably ak-aq-aa-jj-kq etc.. Your information and luck has arrived bet 75% of the pot and even if he calls you your 2 pair will still hold up and you get paid off. Same goes for flops like 3-4-10 with your 5-6 you can check call gamble and take him down assuming he has an over pair and possibly call him down if the river comes a 6 check it down, or bet strongly he will mostly fold no pair. If you only bet out with your quality hands you win baby pots and everyone folds to you the rock. If you're always waiting for premium hands in position then on occasion you will 5 x up your chips with aces full this is rare. ''Play any hand like it's a hand they assume you have, reverse the scenario and catch straights then reverse again and flop a set of kk with the same betting pattern they will be dumbfounded. Avoid calling raises with j-10 you flop a pair think your good make some calls and you lose out kicked.
 
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“Who cares about your stats there valid I just don't get it?”
This is simple and the very basis of modern poker. To play optimally one needs to have balanced ranges. For example if UTG always opens only AA opponents (if they are any good) can make perfect play and fold everything. So opponent will care, and because he will, I will too. To make profit means that opponent makes mistakes, to make mistakes we need to give them opportunity to do so. Rest of you comment was just way too over my skill level, I leave it to the pros like you to figure it out.

“What is the sample size for these stats? (How many hands)”
Range is same one or million hands, I don’t quite get the idea behind your question.

“PT4, try running your HH in Leak Buster?”
Like I said it takes very little skill and experience to play accordingly leak tracker recommendations. Also I already know that one can play profitable with different ranges.
 
Bob23bk

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“What is the sample size for these stats? (How many hands)”
Range is same one or million hands, I don’t quite get the idea behind your question.

Good luck getting 15% VP in 1 hand :rofl:

If the sample size is small, it could just be card dead rather than a range problem. If the sample size is a million here then range probably could use a little optimization :)
 
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