Moving on up, Cash Game Thread

[IPlay]

Another day, another session, and same results. Straight over straight today, that was cute. Overpairs can't win, 2 pair+ either gets coolered or no action, miss all the draws in medium to large sized pots, bink the tiny pot draws AND people fold or I chop with the biggest fish at the table.... Crazy crazy month.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): 127.64 BB
BB: 43.56 BB (VPIP: 58.82, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 35)
UTG: 97.16 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 5.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
MP: 187.32 BB (VPIP: 41.18, PFR: 2.94, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
CO: 104.6 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
BTN: 33 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q:club: Q:diamond:

fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, Hero raises to 14.4 BB, fold, CO raises to 42.36 BB, fold, Hero calls 27.96 BB

Flop: (88.72 BB, 2 players) 5:heart: 3:diamond: Q:spade:
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (88.72 BB, 2 players) T:heart:
Hero bets 34.08 BB, fold,

Didn't feel too good about this hand. I think I played it fine but also feel like shipping it pre isn't bad either? Hard to label someone a nit after 13 hands.

Also that 87 hand, pre is fine right? I mean, folding obviously is not bad or even nitty but calling is ok on the button for the prices I am getting both times, right?

bankroll: $384.48

 

[bitowl]

Save yourself some grief and just jam QQ pre or make a nitty fold imo.

87 is a borderline fold given that postflop action and a rainbow board imo. You have to be seeing them stack off with overpairs here a lot to be happy about getting it in.
equity win tie
MP2 19.00% 18.37% 0.63% 87o
MP3 20.72% 16.20% 4.52% 66+, T9s, 98s, 86s, 76s, 54s, T9o, 86o, 76o
CO 60.28% 55.77% 4.51% 88-66, T9s, 86s, 76s, 54s, T9o

here assumes one player is a bit nittier and one gets it in way too wide & you only have 19%. Just showing that if even 1 of the villians is somewhat tight, having a total fish in the pot doesn't really help as much as you'd think.

 

[IPlay]

QQ-Probably a clear jam considering that he can be 4 betting my squeeze a little lighter some % of the time.

Also agree with folding post with 87, I always get screwed on these connected flops when I flop 2 pair. Although this is a 3 bet pot and we went to the flop with an SPR of ~3 so folding top two would be kind of criminal? Do I not raise the flop because once I raise I don't think I can fold, can I? I mean, I'm getting like 7-1 on the flop. Idk, I feel like I got sucked in with the "I'm getting the price" mentality on all streets but I don't think it is exactly wrong here?

I have noticed a leak of mine lately is playing in 3 bet pots where the 3 bettor made a very small raise. How wide should I 4bet small 3 bets? Should I just keep flatting or should I make folds because there is some RIO against me? Or is calling fine since I am getting a decent price and I have just been running bad lately so I am doubting my play alot?

 

[MinhANguyen]

Hm. I think I might be seeing a leak. I think you're cold calling/overcalling too many raises, especially IP. Position is great, but being IP without the initiative is really tough. I used to do this too, and it hurt my winrate a lot more than I thought it would.

Our calling a raise usually gets the SB/BB to come along often, and unless we catch a strong piece of the flop, we have to play fit-or-fold. We are sandwiched in-between the OR and the blind, and there's less room to make moves/floats. The PF raiser is going to make a c-bet at least more than 50% of the time, and with the BB/SB to act behind us, we have a lot less options. Even if the PF raiser misses and we bluff at it, the SB/BB could have a piece of the board. If you knew that you could almost always get it heads-up with the OR because the blinds were nits for example, calling wider to outplay the OR is fine.

Once I stopped calling/overcalling with marginal hands like 109s, J10s, weak pocket pairs 22-99 (unless I'm in BB with another player in the pot), I started bleeding a lot less money. Also not defending my big blind as wide unless BTN/CO opens for 2.5x/2x. I also hate playing suited connectors/speculative hands without the initiative. We can only win by making our hand if we are multi-way, we won't always get paid off when we hit, and we are going to be chasing a lot AND missing. And we can get coolered by higher flushes, straights, boats, etc when we do get action. At least with the initiative you have fold equity + your actual equity, and when you hit some random gutshot/OESD/flush/BDFD, it's going to be harder for your opponent to put the PFR on such a hand. It is so much easier to get paid off as the PFR when you hit your draw/2PR/set than it is as a cold caller/overcaller.

 

[MinhANguyen]

78 hand I'm folding pre. Folding pre even if it's suited. Even from the BB. We don't catch straights/2PR/trips often enough to justify calling, we don't always get paid off, can get coolered by higher trips/2PR, etc. When we do flop a pair, it's not that great: two overs have a ton of equity against us, and a lot of times there are going to be a lot of overcards to our pair. As played though, calling after the 3-bet and given the price is okay. Also just closing my eyes and shipping the flop.

Unless I'm against a maniac or a reggish player with 16-20% 3-bet and am in BTN vs Blind, I'm just nit folding QQ vs a 4-bet. I find that people play back a lot lot less at squeezes than isolation 3-bets. 4-bet ranges are super narrow below 100NL. When we GII with QQ with a full stack, I don't see that many worse hands we'll be up against. I also prefer getting it in with AK rather than QQ because we have a ton more fold equity since we block half the combos of AA/KK. With QQ we block some 4-bet bluffs like AQ, QK, and there's all the combos of AA/KK/AK left.

I might be a nit, but I just open-fold AK/JJ/1010, and sometimes QQ (UTG vs MP 3-bettor for example) if there's a raiser and a 3-bettor readless. With a raiser and 3-bettor, there's more of a chance one of them has a real hand like AA/KK, and I don't think cold 4-betting AK/QQ/JJ is really that much +EV. Probably -EV at these stakes. It also reduces variance, and we do have a ton of RIO when we do cold-call with AK/QQ/JJ/1010. Tbh if this is wrong play and it is marginally +EV (which imo I don't think it is at these stakes), I'm fine with passing it up to reduce variance and move on to the next hand. Especially since I play on 2 Zone tables. I don't like being in marginal spots with my entire stack at risk.

Also, in general people are making less moves and playing back at you less than you might think they are.

 

[IPlay]

and the grand reveal........... This is from the start of the challenge (11/24) and is 26k hands. I got my 20k hands in for the month of December which is nice with all the run bad that lead to a little lack of motivation+a lot of stuff happening this month with the GFs BDay, Xmas, family and all that.

You guys are going to think I'm a whiner(Maybe I am? ) when I post these stats because I actually crushed all together. Too bad I got brutalized at 25NL on a short bankroll though.

One leak that is glaring at me is what Minh mentioned. At 25NL my 3bet drops a lot along with my squeeze % and I am flatting too much pre which I will work on ASAP next month.

Happy Holidays and hope you all stay safe and run good!! See ya next year!

Oh yeah, I am posting graph now because I am moving and won't have internet until the 2nd. So see ya then, I'll probably still post on my phone but I won't be playing and will probably review my database and do some reading.

Graph looks damn good in bb/100 but not so good in currency but you can see that in the info box in the bottom right.

Right click and open image in new tab if you need the image enlarged.

 

[IPlay]

I am back bros. Went 10 days without internet and it was brutal but I was pretty busy anyway, and got some study in. Mainly over flatting in 3 bet pots and I think it was helpful and I was flatting way too much.

I am going to assume no replies on graphs and stats is a good thing and that is no obvious spots I am spewing in. I actually got internet back on Saturday and got a couple small sessions in but Bovadas software is SOOO BAD all of a sudden. No huds work, it is super laggy and troubles with topping up. I think I am going to try out a little zone poker while the site is like this since I can't use a hud anyway and I need to make up for basically 10 days of not grinding. Wish me luck, I have had 2 sessions so far in zone and the first one I ran like god for over 4 buy ins in an hour or two and had about a hour session today and lost a buy in.

Bankroll: $480.19

 

[IPlay]

Really annoying that Bovada is so messed up atm and it is going to make it hard to keep up with this thread. I had a few interesting spots but I can't post them until tomorrow at 8pm which means they probably won't be posted until late on Wednesday.

I am pretty much going to play 2 tables of 10NL and 2 of 25NL on zone poker until the fix then maybe try out 2 25NL zone and 2 25NL. I find that playing 2 25 zone and 2 regular is too hard without a hud because I can't pay attention to other tables as much and I feel like I am giving up too much edge, but maybe I will get used to that.

Oh and here is some run good, those stacks though

Had a little losing session this afternoon but the evening grind more then made up for it.

Bankroll: $530.87

 

[MinhANguyen]

Good luck for 2016! You ran bad for 25NL last time, but hopefully things will turn around . Nice RNG there though: AA/KK/QQ all at once. I took a 3 week off poker after burning out, but now probably extending that to 7 weeks due to busy college month. Playing only 1 or 2 sessions on the weekends until February . I hope I don't get too rusty after coming back haha.

 

[bitowl]

I am going to assume no replies on graphs and stats is a good thing and that is no obvious spots I am spewing in.

Wow your WWSF is really high which is good... I haven't messed around with stats since th summer so I'm kind of hazy on it... but I think I remember 35 pretty much meant someone was weak tight and mid 40s was solid and you're above that. It looks like you're barreling a ton and getting the folds you need.

People always used to say you should have a very tiny gap between preflop raise and vpip, but if you're fighting for pots postflop and getting folds then obviously don't change.

48% calling 3bets from EP might be a leak if you're just calling because you think folding AQ/JJ is too weak but then you give up under pressure... I know there are filters you can run for these kinds of things to see if you're leaking.

I'm kind of curious what your flop and turn raise % facing a cbet are. Do you feel like most of your value comes from barreling with initiative or are you doing lots of semi bluff raising and pushing people around? My WWSF was always bordering on weak tight and I didn't know what to tweak to win more pots.

 

[IPlay]

Good luck for 2016! You ran bad for 25NL last time, but hopefully things will turn around . Nice RNG there though: AA/KK/QQ all at once. I took a 3 week off poker after burning out, but now probably extending that to 7 weeks due to busy college month. Playing only 1 or 2 sessions on the weekends until February . I hope I don't get too rusty after coming back haha.

Thanks dude, still running kind of bad but meh. People spew enough for me to have a tiny win rate still. You picked a good time to take a break with bovada going to shit. It is looking good now though and OMG ITS FAST, should be able to get a lot more hands per hour in zone and regular tables. Idk how many yet since I haven't downloaded enough hands yet to tell.

Wow your WWSF is really high which is good... I haven't messed around with stats since th summer so I'm kind of hazy on it... but I think I remember 35 pretty much meant someone was weak tight and mid 40s was solid and you're above that. It looks like you're barreling a ton and getting the folds you need.

People always used to say you should have a very tiny gap between preflop raise and vpip, but if you're fighting for pots postflop and getting folds then obviously don't change.

48% calling 3bets from EP might be a leak if you're just calling because you think folding AQ/JJ is too weak but then you give up under pressure... I know there are filters you can run for these kinds of things to see if you're leaking.

I'm kind of curious what your flop and turn raise % facing a cbet are. Do you feel like most of your value comes from barreling with initiative or are you doing lots of semi bluff raising and pushing people around? My WWSF was always bordering on weak tight and I didn't know what to tweak to win more pots.

I am pretty aggressive and not afraid to bluff pre or post but it is a small sample so WWSF might not be too meaningful.

You are probably right about calling 3bets from EP and I'll check that out later.

I'll dig into the raise cbet stat later when I have more time on pc.

Just played a small session of zone only 2 tables of 25NL(10 doesn't run in day time)

Bankroll: $522.32

Cheers

 

[IPlay]

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 127.84 BB (VPIP: 35.27, PFR: 14.14, 3Bet Preflop: 4.00, Hands: 139,615)
SB: 52.52 BB (VPIP: 39.50, PFR: 8.24, 3Bet Preflop: 3.89, Hands: 142,017)
BB: 202.52 BB (VPIP: 26.16, PFR: 6.01, 3Bet Preflop: 4.21, Hands: 146,022)
UTG: 177.16 BB (VPIP: 28.04, PFR: 11.82, 3Bet Preflop: 3.37, Hands: 144,674)
Hero (MP): 217.16 BB
CO: 85.48 BB (VPIP: 29.70, PFR: 11.86, 3Bet Preflop: 3.17, Hands: 125,630)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 2:club: 2:heart:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 9.4 BB, Hero calls 6.4 BB

Flop: (19.2 BB, 2 players) 2:diamond: T:heart: J:club:
BB bets 11.6 BB, Hero calls 11.6 BB

Turn: (42.4 BB, 2 players) 3:spade:
BB bets 24.2 BB, Hero calls 24.2 BB

River: (90.8 BB, 2 players) 8:diamond:
BB bets 54 BB, Hero raises to 171.96 BB and is all-in, BB calls 103.32 BB and is all-in

Hero shows 2:club: 2:heart: (Three of a Kind, Twos)
(Pre 18%, Flop 89%, Turn 95%)
BB mucks A:spade: A:heart: (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 82%, Flop 11%, Turn 5%)
Hero wins 397.44 BB


Pre is fine right? Zone seems to put me in a lot more deep stacked spots that are pretty rare on regular tables. Trying to review them a little bit while my internet is messing up today. Can pretty much only view forums with minimal pictures, can't even open Bovada.

 

[Aces2w1n]

Stars often reconnects regularly for some reason

 

[bitowl]

Pre is fine right?

If they overvalue aces 200bb deep like this and have a relatively tight 3betting range then definitely.

 

[IPlay]

If they overvalue aces 200bb deep like this and have a relatively tight 3betting range then definitely.

This is readless but I can say this does apply to majority of the player pool. Especially in this spot pre, not many light 3 bets in his range.

 

[xdeucesx]

Definitely fine IP w/200+bbs, nh

 

[IPlay]

Ok, today was something else. My bankroll peaked two days ago at 646.66 and ever since, running pretty bad at 25NL. Crushing 10NL though, the usual for me. Beat 10/5NL for 20bb/100 consistently, move up to 25 and run like dirt.

Lost stacks to K2 and Q2 sooooooted set over set AA over KK the usual junk that happens when running bad. May post some hands later.

On the plus side I am really enjoying zone and feel like I have a big edge against the field in both 10 and 25NL and get this... I AM GETTING LIKE 1k HANDS AN HOUR! Its insane after grinding so few hands/hour at regular 6 max tables and even worse full ring. (I think 270 at 6max and 170at FR)

I for sure need to get used to this though and can't grind for more then 2 hours at a time without my brain getting scattered. Also tilt comes fast but I think zone helps my tilt if anything since I can move on to the next hand so quick.

Oh and Aces it was my internet, the whole downtown area had intermittent outages but it is all good now and also had a technician come and fix my speeds.

 

[IPlay]

oh and bankroll: $528.41

I also need to ask you guys, when you are playing zone and get a hand like K3 sooted are you sticking around to see if you get to see a free flop or insta folding? I'm leaning towards folding but feel like I am passing up EV for the times I see a free flop. On the other hand that hand has reverse implied odds AND I can probably see another 5 to sometimes 10 hands if I just fold and move on so maybe that equalizes the EV to where it does not matter?

If you are insta folding your BB in zone sometimes, what range are you sticking around with? Pretty bad question I am sure but I never played zone.

 

[MinhANguyen]

I'm waiting in the BB with ATC. I think you're cutting into your win-rate by fast folding your BB. If it gets folded around to you but you choose to fast fold, you lose 1.5bb. Also, the SB and other players may limp in, giving you a free flop to hit a BB special and get paid off. UTG may do stupid things like limp KK/AA and pay you off nicely if you hit trips, for example.

I'm instamucking K3 sooted from any position in Zone (except the BB ofc), even OTB. Due to being able to fold immediately to the next hand, stronger player pool in Zone, and 3-betting monkeys here and there, it's better to fold to the next hand than to take a super marginal +EV spot. I was stubborn at one point and almost opened the exact range as I would in a cash game, but I read that piece of advice somewhere on this board. It gives you a better hourly rate.

Yeah, Zone is brutally fast. You shouldn't try playing for too long at first. How do you get 1k hands per hour though? 2 10Nl and 2 25NL Zone? 2 Cash 2 Zone is about 650-700 hands per hour.

22 only calling if stacks are 200bb+. Blind vs BTN 3-bets are wider, especially Zone. Can't get paid off as often when you hit your set. So when you do get paid off, you want to get paid off huge. And without a HUD, maneuvering/bluff-raising with no equity in a 3-bet pot against an unknown is spew.

 

[IPlay]

Sometimes I see message of me winning pots from hands I folded a few back so I assume that from everyone else folding to my BB when I fast fold? Idk but I'll have to pay more attention and see.

Minh, bro, do you notice your UTG raise being 3 bet by UTG +1 A TON. I swear it seems to happen every 10 minutes at 25NL but never at 10NL and i don't know what to think about it. Can people be raising light there because it looks so strong? I am going to review those spots tomorrow when I have a lot more hands downloaded.

Also yeah, 2 10 and 2 25 zone. Lost a bunch yesterday so I may play 2 10 and 2 regular 25 tables till my roll gets a little higher.

$464.92 down almost 8 buy ins from my peak, I did bluff spew a few buy ins that I am not happy about, I'll post those hands when I can. I got into crappy river spots with like 6 high and just wouldn't give up and felt like I had to bet when I really didn't but time goes so quick I feel like I just spazzed

 

[IPlay]

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 121.24 BB
Hero (UTG): 164.44 BB
MP: 140 BB
CO: 62.04 BB
BTN: 187.56 BB
SB: 106.76 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A:spade: T:spade:

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP raises to 8.92 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold,

I folded and villain had KhQh. What do you guys think of his 3 bet? Is it a semi bluff? Is it better then flatting? I would consider folding if I am in villain shoes but am I making the mistake? I can see 3 betting this being ok.

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 121.24 BB
Hero (UTG): 164.44 BB
MP: 140 BB
CO: 62.04 BB
BTN: 187.56 BB
SB: 106.76 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A:spade: T:spade:

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP raises to 8.92 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold,

Is this too tight of a fold from me? Villain had JJ btw but after seeing other hand maybe people are 3 betting in this spot somewhat light so I should maybe flat 99? These are the only two hands I have right now of this spot but there will be a lot more when I get to review my hands from last night.

Cheers

 

[bitowl]

More likely a bad reg just auto 3 betting the top of his range until you adjust. Though it might accidentally be a good play if the table is squeeze happy and you fold alot pre.

If I sense my EP opens are being 3bet light I just start polarized 4betting, using Axss as a 4bet fold because it blocks some premium hands. If they start flatting 4bets wide you then have to depolarize and strap in for some high variance street poker.

 

[akaRobbo]

I'll give villains credit for 3betting my UTG open to start with but if i sense they're doing it too wide I'll 4bet lighter. Folding ATs UTG to an unknown 3bet is far from bad/losing you BBs imo

 

[IPlay]

Its anonymous zoom poker too so always readless unless they have a pretty big stack.

 

[akaRobbo]

Isn't zoom nittier than reg tables? If so I'd say it fine to just fold