low stakes PL Omaha

[Fat Stu]

Recently got fed up with holdem and have been playing alot of low stakes (0.02/0.05 & 0.05/0.10) PL Omaha with varying degrees of success.

Managing to win he majority of big pots but struggling to win many small pots as betting draws or hands like 2 pair/trips doesn't seem to shift alot of opponents. any tips on playing omaha at this level as I feel this will be alot easier to beat than holdem if you get it right.

 

[Coramoor_]

omaha at this level is a nuts game(always shooting for the best hand)

you really should always be playing hands that can at least get a straight as it's very hard to move anyone in this game at such low stakes, play a lot of akqj, or even 5678 double suited hands as you'll manage a lot of straight or flush possibilities but quite frankly, you shouldnt be playing any hands at this level that can not give a straight or a flush, so double suited or a lot of connector hands should be your main goal

 

[only_bridge]

omaha at this level is a nuts game(always shooting for the best hand)

you really should always be playing hands that can at least get a straight as it's very hard to move anyone in this game at such low stakes, play a lot of akqj, or even 5678 double suited hands as you'll manage a lot of straight or flush possibilities but quite frankly, you shouldnt be playing any hands at this level that can not give a straight or a flush, so double suited or a lot of connector hands should be your main goal

I agree half/half with this statement. Avoid middle pairs, remember the importance of position, raise when you have something, dont call too often, try to wait for a hand with potential instead of calling just cause its cheap.

 

[MainEventOrBust]

play a lot of akqj, or even 5678 double suited hands as you'll manage a lot of straight or flush possibilities but quite frankly, you shouldnt be playing any hands at this level that can not give a straight or a flush, so double suited or a lot of connector hands should be your main goal

Can't agree with wanting to make a flush that's 8 high. As you mentioned, its a nuts game, and you are likely to pay out a huge amount to a bigger flush when you are beat. Conversely, if an 8 high flush is good, no one has anything worth calling you, and with three to a flush on board, and no pair on board, you won't get any value.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

Playing at these levels is a matter of grinding it out. You have to be real disciplined and play very nitty. Play only premium hands. You will find that the average player at these levels will look for any excuse to call your raises. You can make some good money here. Also if you feel you are capable of tight play look into NL/O. You will get some real donks calling you for their whole stacks with you holding AAJ10 double suited PF.

 

[Coramoor_]

Can't agree with wanting to make a flush that's 8 high. As you mentioned, its a nuts game, and you are likely to pay out a huge amount to a bigger flush when you are beat. Conversely, if an 8 high flush is good, no one has anything worth calling you, and with three to a flush on board, and no pair on board, you won't get any value.

the goal isnt a flush 8 high, the goal is to have as many possible nut hands, what's the good of ak98 double suited on a j52 off board, the tighter your groupings the higher your likelihood of hitting a nut type hand, in such low stakes, the more nut draws you have preflop, the better

 

[Divebitch]

Recently got fed up with holdem and have been playing alot of low stakes (0.02/0.05 & 0.05/0.10) PL Omaha with varying degrees of success.

Managing to win he majority of big pots but struggling to win many small pots as betting draws or hands like 2 pair/trips doesn't seem to shift alot of opponents. any tips on playing omaha at this level as I feel this will be alot easier to beat than holdem if you get it right.

Welcome to Omaha. Seeing as you've recently 'joined the shift' from NLHE, here's something you should know. PLO is not about winning small pots. If you are winning the majority of your big pots, you're ahead of the game. :congrats: PL differs from limit Omaha in that PLO is a post flop game. Sure you can isolate to some extent, and even bluff with extreme caution (position is critical). But experienced Omaha players know that with 4 cards, a huge array of things can happen on the flop. They don't go bananas UTG with naked aces. lol

I'm not going to expound on starting hands. As BBB suggested, if you're "real disciplined and play very nitty, and play only premium hands", the flops will take care of themselves more frequently.

Can't help a little brag. This is from yesterday. I was in 9th place (was in 3rd at 1 point), and made a bold move. Then it was over in 20th.

One more thing... I play the PLO/8 at micro stakes and there are plenty of decent players, amongst the sea of abysmal ones. It becomes a small world when you stick to the same types of tables. I have notes on roughly 1/3 of my tablemates now, and the good ones, we've come to respect each other's play and raises.

 

[c9h13no3]

the tighter your groupings the higher your likelihood of hitting a nut type hand

Another reason you play tight connecting hands is the strength of the draws & redraws they flop.

JT54 can make 8 straights, JT98 can only make 6 straights. However, when JT98 hits flops, it hits them much harder than JT54. If you flop two pair, you always have an OESD, you can flop nut wrap draws with JT98, ect. Also, as you've said, the JT98 hand will always make the nut straight, while the JT54 hand won't.

The name of the game in Omaha is postflop equity. And strongly connecting hands allow you to have higher postflop equity than ones that don't connect. With omaha, you want to flop X + Y, hands with multiple draws or a strong made hand plus a strong draw. A set & a flush draw, 2 pair and a straight draw, a straight draw plus a flush draw, ect. And you can't do this unless all 4 of your cards work together.

 

[LizzyJ]

I've played a little bit of PLO8 and it is a wild game! From what little exposure i've had, I totally understand why there are HUGE swings in this game. It's difficult to tell how much ahead or behind you really are. From what I learned it is a drawing game. Top pair isn't worth a whole lot and 2 pair is marginal. Heck even straights are marginal. Every time I hit a straight I was praying that the board didn't pair or the board didn't go 3 to a flush. And if you don't have the nut straight, that's even more reason to be nervous. In one session I hit quads twice! lol

If you are an adrenaline/action freak, and have nerves of steel, it can be extremely profitable.

 

[jmasterrich]

I think its also worthy to note that its SUPER swingy....especially on like 6 max tables losing a buyin or two and then winning 5 or vice versa, is not uncommon.

 

[Divebitch]

Another reason you play tight connecting hands is the strength of the draws & redraws they flop.

JT54 can make 8 straights, JT98 can only make 6 straights. However, when JT98 hits flops, it hits them much harder than JT54. If you flop two pair, you always have an OESD (not to mention a boat draw) , you can flop nut wrap draws with JT98, ect. Also, as you've said, the JT98 hand will always make the nut straight, while the JT54 hand won't.

JT98 will not always make a nut straight. And JT54 certainly can. Thread from a guy asking about 349T, similar to your example: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/quick-omaha-152568/

Quick excerpt I wrote: "Onto the straight issues. First off, hard to get a nut straight with 34. Now if the 34 were even a 56 to go with that 9-10...if a 78 hits the flop, you'd have the biggest wrap in Omaha. A 67 or 78 would be even better than 56. Not as big a wrap, but more likely to hit. At any rate, 349T has no wrap potential whatsoever. You have to hit it just right. And should you hit it on the flop or turn, it will be always be subject to getting freerolled by a higher straight."

This reiterates what you said about hitting hard I guess. Your 89TJ offers freeroll protection if you flop the low end (i.e. 567 or 67T). If the flop brings a 9JQ, you are easily in trouble.

Anyway, the thing with gaps is this. (Upper gaps are bad news, nuff said.) Any gap, if hit, adds another 4 outs. It's kinda like 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. You can still make nut straights (Broadway or on the low end) if the gap card doesn't hit, but if it does, you could have a monster wrap.

 

[c9h13no3]

JT98 will not always make a nut straight.

Yeah, my bad. Had a brain fart.

Anyway, the thing with gaps is this. (Upper gaps are bad news, nuff said.) Any gap, if hit, adds another 4 outs. It's kinda like 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. You can still make nut straights (Broadway or on the low end) if the gap card doesn't hit, but if it does, you could have a monster wrap.

Yeah, JT96 has a bigger wrap draw than JT98 on a 78x flop. But JT96 can only flop 1 nut wrap (78x) while JT98 can flop two (67x, 78x). And the pair helps your equity as well, since when you hit your straight, you have a re-draw to a boat, and you don't have to improve to win against other draws.

You can debate the minutia of various Omaha hands, but the key is that with all 4 cards working together, you hit flops much harder than when they're seperated. JT54 can make more straights, but its going to be hard to flop more than 8 outs. And the goal of Omaha isn't to make straights, its to make hands postflop that have high equity.

The bottom line is this: Hands that can make redraws & high equity draws postflop rank higher than ones that can't. And this requires all 4 cards to be working together.

 

[Divebitch]

You can debate the minutia of various Omaha hands, but the key is that with all 4 cards working together, you hit flops much harder than when they're seperated. JT54 can make more straights, but its going to be hard to flop more than 8 outs. And the goal of Omaha isn't to make straights, its to make hands postflop that have high equity.

The bottom line is this: Hands that can make redraws & high equity draws postflop rank higher than ones that can't. And this requires all 4 cards to be working together.

And the minutae in all things wrap are almost endless. But very well said. Freerolling to redraws are the name of the game, as your hand unfolds post-flop. But give yourself something to work with pre-flop. Each card should be doing a job in relation to its holemates.

 

[Fat Stu]

Cheers for the responses so far guys(and gals).

1 quick question though how would you play straight draws with flush draws that aren't always nut flush/nut straight draws.

These seem to be a common positions I find myself in after the flop(will try and get hand analyst's up soon) and i'm not sure if I should be check calling out of position, check folding or open raising and in position if I should be checking if possible, raising, cold calling or re-raising bets as reads are very difficult to pick up on in this game/level.

 

[Divebitch]

Cheers for the responses so far guys(and gals).

1 quick question though how would you play straight draws with flush draws that aren't always nut flush/nut straight draws.

These seem to be a common positions I find myself in after the flop(will try and get hand analyst's up soon) and i'm not sure if I should be check calling out of position, check folding or open raising and in position if I should be checking if possible, raising, cold calling or re-raising bets as reads are very difficult to pick up on in this game/level.

Difficult to answer. I can only say with certainty that re-raising without a (monster) draw (and possibly redraws) to the absolute nuts is a terrible move. And you already probably know that when a pair hits, unless you have at LEAST a boat (yes there are levels of boats too), your flush or straight is toast. But lets say the flop come JhThTd. You have AhAsQhQs. It might be correct to call in hopes of an A or Q or a Kh for the Royal. Extreme example, I know.

In addition to position, and who has raised or not, a lot depends on the texture of the flop. If flop comes a rainbow multi-gapper, a raise usually means 2 pair or a set. Any callers should have similar. If the flop brings a 2-flush, be aware of who might call for that. Your best chance for any non-nut hand being good is when it comes runner runner (and there has been a raise) with busted draws (usually to a boat or flush - a 2-flush flop that never hit). Don't know if that makes much sense as explained, but hope so. Example. Rainbow junk flop, KhTs3c . You have . UTG raises pot you will call with 2 pairs and a nut straight draw. Chances are someone with just a backdoor nut flush draw ah: ) will (or should) fold, and your 9T should be good. Same for nut spade draw, it will likely be folded to a pot bet if that's all they got.

There are also levels of non-nuts. Even when the board flops a flop, your K high will probably be good, strictly odds-wise. Your 83 will likely not be.

Non-nut boats, same thing. Board is KKT83. Nut boat is KT in the hole. You have K8 or even K3, it's probably good. You have a pair of 3s, you're probably beaten by a KT, K8, K3, TT, 88.

Moving right along to straights. You can have the idiot end (56 to a 789 board - suicide), the middle (6T), or the nuts. A certain type of middle might be fine. Example... board of 4578K. You have 668A. You can only be beaten by a 69. And your having 2 of them in your hand bodes well to hold up. You gotta be aware of every little thing, they all matter. :laugh:

 

[Divebitch]

and your 9T should be good in the event you get a runner runner flush. Same for nut spade draw, it will likely be folded to a pot bet if that's all they got. So you'd have a K-high (nothing to sneeze at) backdoor flush draw as well.


There are also levels of non-nuts. Even when the board flops a flush, your K high will probably be good, strictly odds-wise. Your 83 will likely not be.

Fixed my post (too late to edit).

 

[LizzyJ]

Does anyone have any recommendations on any good books to read up on?

thanks in advance.

 

[Divebitch]

Does anyone have any recommendations on any good books to read up on?

thanks in advance.

This is probably a must-have... Amazon.com: Pot-Limit Omaha Poker: Jeff Hwang: Books

About 1/3 of the book is dedicated to H/L, both limit and PL. Perfect for beginners thru intermediate or slightly adv/int.

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

Great book. Have reread it a few times.

 

[LizzyJ]

Does anyone have an idea what % of starting hands you should be playing?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Divebitch]

Does anyone have an idea what % of starting hands you should be playing?

Thanks in advance.

Not really. I guess I shouldn't bother answering then, right? I imagine it's the same as for any other game, but I could be wrong. I dunno, maybe 25%? Honestly, I pay no attention whatsoever to that stat. No idea whether or not those stats include the blinds or what. I play my hands based on their merit and always take position into consideration, especially if it's not limit.

 

[undone]

I normally play suited connectors and things of that nature... i dont know if other people do this but i tend to stay away from JJ QQ 1010 and hands like that which i dont have a suited connector with it.. is this a good stragegy?

 

[Divebitch]

I normally play suited connectors and things of that nature... i dont know if other people do this but i tend to stay away from JJ QQ 1010 and hands like that which i dont have a suited connector with it.. is this a good stragegy?

Medium - highish pairs should have at least 1 connector, preferably 2 (i.e. QQJ8 or JTT8). Even more important than being suited. The odds for straights can be a lot higher than your odds for any one particular flush - depending on how many connectors, and gaps and such.

And as always, it depends on position, and what has happened before your turn. For example, AJJ7 double suited, while not very connected, is playable in many situations.

 

[undone]

okay thats what i thought... i really just like playing like 65aj ds and stuff like that... any hand will do for me in omaha haha

 

[SONIC589]

good thread!! I've played around with PLO a bit lately and have had mixed success. One day I'll win a couple buyin's and the next I'll lose a couple. I definately don't have a firm grasp on the game. I'm still over valuing 2 pair and trips when I hit them lol, can't shake the NLHE out of me.