Limping in cash games!

yonosemanana

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I just limped with AJspades, from the earliest of positions. lets see how it goes.... 9 player table

Had 4 callers, that also limped. flop comes: 3s, 4, J. I bet pot, get one caller (sb).

turn: 10s, villain bets 1/3 the pot, I raise villain all in with a pair and flush draw. Villain folds.
 
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Spewster

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NEVER open limp? Even with low pockets or KJs from utg+2?

WAT? I'll send you my bank details so you can wire your bankroll directly to me.

Limping KJs and low pocket pairs from early position? Well, what if MP calls CO raises and BTN calls.

Do you call the raise? Do you 3bet? No matter what you do, you'll be in a world of hurt once you play those hands out of position in a multiway pot.

Better set your money on fire. At least you have it warm for a short while...or donate it to charity.
 
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You only trap yourself by limping...i never do it unless im vs a super agro...then i might limp a monster and 5 or 6 bet him after he raises me
 
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Holy_Ghost

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You must adjust to every situation...depends on position and how many have called the bb ahead of you as to what hands to play...for instance if there is many calls before you and you are on the button it may be smart to call a small suited connector...if the flop falls great you can take down some big hands...if not you fold cheaply.
 
abzdolc

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probably I can limp some suited connectors in early positions. but of course, if you are on cut off or blinds, you have to play with more agro :)
 
vapandrei

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on micro limits just focus on stealing blinds

Why steal the blinds? How many blinds of 0.5, 0.10, 0.15 etc can you steal to grow your BR? On a 9h table you'll get hit by a premium hand or a reraise. Doesn't seem like a sound strategy..

Maybe on zoom/snap where people are prone to folding.. but even there, the blinds aren't where the money is.
 
Jdjakubisin

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What limp?

Is limping in cash game profitable.
I think it is and it is more valuable in cash games than tourneys.
Its works very well against loose passive calling stations.
And you can control the pot more.
If headsup or 3 ways.


First of all, you have given me a third definition of limping in. I used to think it was just the small blind calling the big with a mediocre hand because he was "halfway in already." Then I grew to under stand that anyone who calls the BB with a lesser hand just to see the flop was a limper.

Now you are telling me that if you slow play a great starting hand, that is a strategical limp?

Next thought,...

Slow playing a great starting hand at a cash game can do a few things...
1) Save you money if the flop doesn't go your way.
2) Some seasoned cash game opponents get in a rhythm and if you break it up with a sudden raise that is due your great starting hand, they'll stop. Let them think they are still going somewhere and don't let them know they aren't until they are pot committed.
3) After they realize you played a straight on the flop as if you were missing, they might get up and leave. This happened to me as I held KJ with the AQT flop and no raise, but hesitant calling. Trips on the river led the guy to big and I reraised to an immediate call. They all saw the straight and 3 people got up and left me with a monster pot.
4) You could loose your KK's value to an A4 with that A on the board.

It all depends for me on the predictable habits of those around me and how much I can afford to risk in terms of my stack.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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on micro limits just focus on stealing blinds, what should be more profitable then open limps for example from sb. Just make proper adjustments with your open ranges vs that loose passive calling stations and outplay them postflop with bigger pot.

This is pretty terrible advice. People at the microstakes do not fold.

To beat the microstakes you need to play premium hands and value bet when you think you are good. Legit that simple.

To OP, yes limping can be +VE, but do it with the right hands. Things like small/mid pps, suited connectors and suited aces when in middle/late position is generally fine at the micros as long as the game is passive.
 
Misaki

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if you disagree about stealing the blinds then you clearly don't understand what poker is. Ofc valuebetting is important on micro, but saying the people don't fold there seems funny. Poker is about stealing the blinds. That small pots build your winrate mostly in long run. And you can't count that they will always fold. You can overplay them postflop with your skill advantage.
 
inflmara

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this is a terable way to play pokerall your doing is letting people see and cheap flop and letting rake eat your stack

you never win big because if you're active they think you hit something
and fold
 
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braveslice

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And you can't count that they will always fold. You can overplay them postflop with your skill advantage.

Also imo emphasizing that it doesn’t matter if they call. If they call too little you gain by fold equity, if they call too wide you gain by having position and good enough range to play post flop. If they call by just right, you might still have skill edge to play together with position. Remember you need two components out of three to make profit: I) Range advantage II) Position III) Skill edge

So in a nutshell against good players you steal less, against bad players you can widen your range ip. Also stealing does not mean you get folds, it just means that it's profitable to open wide from late position with position.

Now the separate thing is that it’s not fun to play against agro fish with wide range but given we now can play also against agro fish with tighter range we should do it if we don’t enjoy the fights too much. Tighter ranged does not mean nutted range (except in rare cases) but for example 35% range. This range should be chosen in a way that hero feels comfortable to play this range.
 
wlad20082009

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I don't like this kind of game . It's endless for me . I don't know when to stop !
 
Misaki

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By doing what exactly?

cbetting, delaycbetting, call their donks with dominating range etc etc. There are many options. By focus on steal I didn't mean: open any2. If the guys is passive postflop I will open wider, if he is kinda aggro I will tighten up my range. Believe me, people on micro fold more than players on higher limits. Most of regs on micro are passive, they don't defend much, and they are easy to exploit. Everything is about proper adjustment. If you still don't believe how stealing, re-stealing, cbetting can be profitable on micro just watch Epiphany77's streams. Best example nowadays.
 
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cbetting, delaycbetting, call their donks with dominating range etc etc. There are many options. By focus on steal I didn't mean: open any2. If the guys is passive postflop I will open wider, if he is kinda aggro I will tighten up my range. Believe me, people on micro fold more than players on higher limits. Most of regs on micro are passive, they don't defend much, and they are easy to exploit. Everything is about proper adjustment. If you still don't believe how stealing, re-stealing, cbetting can be profitable on micro just watch Epiphany77's streams. Best example nowadays.


Lol, you're exactly the kind of guy I'd love to flat/3bet from the BB with my quality hands...and since youdon't know how to size your "steals" properly, you're losing 50bb/hh even from the BTN.

You're suggesting "outplaying them with your postflop skill" to guys who discuss open limping or completing the SB.

Dude, people who play at the micros have zero postflop skill. They 3bet AKo and cbet 1/2 on a Q97ss board in a multiway pot. They cannot flop a set on the turn when they face a raise once the flush is complete and I'm sure 90% of the micro players don't even know what board texture means.

Question: Can you fold your K6s from the button to a check raise from the BB on a K6Q rainbow flop? Can you fold your 99 on a J97 monotone flop in a 3bet pot? Can you let go of your A7o on 7Q7 when the SB shoves on you?

I honestly don't think so and I don't know any mirco player who can, so pls stop the bullshit.

IF you play the micros, you belong there and you should focus on playing premium hands and bet them for value. The money you make comes from the idiots who cannot let go second best hands to effective nuts/nuts aka the KQ on K6Q, the KAs on the J97 and the QQ on 7Q7.

Keep your redline flat and focus on your blue line. Playing redline poker in micros is a receipt for disaster. You cannot fold and run into trash hands who hit the lucky flop.
 
Pocketks21

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Cash games I'll limp with mid suited jumpers or small pockets trying to catch a open ender or flush draw or both. But in tourneys I think most of your play should be strong moves pre flop to try and get that junk out of there.
 
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braveslice

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Let me guess, Spewster is starting_at_the_bottom's alter ego?
 
Misaki

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Question: Can you fold your K6s from the button to a check raise from the BB on a K6Q rainbow flop? Can you fold your 99 on a J97 monotone flop in a 3bet pot? Can you let go of your A7o on 7Q7 when the SB shoves on you?

I will only answer to this, because this topic started to be tiring.

K6? no fold because KK, QQ, KQ mostly 3bet preflop from BB vs BU.
99 fold on J97 monotone? depends on villain but mostly not because people still overplay their kings and aces.
A7o on Q77? lol

seriously. Did you hear something about ranges? good luck on tables. Im off from this toxic topic. Keep limping and believe that nitty style is the best thing on micro.
 
lsbenn

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Reading all the different opinions on limping and I find there are different times to limp even with good hands.
Playing at my local poker room we have players with more money than sence. They will call any raise perflop so you still in end up in a multiway pot.
Limping with these players is a better option (hence they like to see the flop with any 2 cards) and then add your post flop play to the arsenal.
If you hit the flop hard you will rake in the chips.
 
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Guys really, this is so tilting. Last post from me on this topic here.

I played micro's long enough and I tried all different styles so I know a think or two on how to beat 2NL-10NL.

Just don't limp. Just don't play trash hands. I's not because you're supposed to be disciplined, nitty or boring. You don't do this to keep you out of trouble and make decisions easier for you.

You limp AA from UTG and suddenly you have 6 people in the pot. You shove and complain because a fish calls and you lose a suck out against his flush that he miraculously made on 3TQ double suited because you moron let him see a cheap flop with his 64s.

You lower your PFR size from 3.5/3 to 3/2.5 and try to weasel around postflop with trash and some kind of wanna be small ball style? Good for you, you collect a couple of BB before you lose it all cause you haven't learned to fold TPTK or top 2Pair.

Look around in the hand analysis threads. They are littered with difficult spots that can all be avoided if you just played preflop correctly.

Thing is, all those micro muppets try to get in as cheaply as possible to see if they hit something or be "agressive" and push people off of uncontested pots. Anyone who does this and talks about ranges at the same time hasn't understood a single thing. Ranges begin preflop. You don't get into a pot with 50% range and start hand reading.

Your hand starts preflop. You select your range by position and type of villain(s). Yes you can play wide, but you have to do it in the right spots in the right game.
CO/BTN in 6Max? I play 30%, too.

But limp 50% in a micro fullring? No.

Anyways, do what you want. If you want to get out of micro hell, play the top of the range, raise big with your premium hands and let the sucker pay to play his QTs against your AQ. Don't bluff, bet for value hard and let them pay you.

If you are bored folding for three orbits, play four tables or two tables 6max.

If that's all too basic or nitty for you, so be it, keep doing what you're doing and limp away. But don't post a hand against some clown in the BB who crushed your K7s that you limped from the CO beat on K74 because he got to play 74o for free and was gifted a 4 on the river. "Well I wish I could play higher where they respect my raises". Good Lord.

On the other hand...don't tap the fish glas ;)
 
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swannymojo

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WAT? I'll send you my bank details so you can wire your bankroll directly to me.

Limping KJs and low pocket pairs from early position? Well, what if MP calls CO raises and BTN calls.

Do you call the raise? Do you 3bet? No matter what you do, you'll be in a world of hurt once you play those hands out of position in a multiway pot.

Better set your money on fire. At least you have it warm for a short while...or donate it to charity.

I'm happy to have a non aggressive intellectual conversation here on why-in a full ring game- it isn't negative ev to occasionally open limp...or i can just "set my money on fire" and be done with this convo...i'm here to learn and would love to hear your take on why from a game theory perspective it is ALWAYS negative ev to open limp.

If you come in with an opening range of 20% of your hands you can be exploited by others three-betting you light in position...if you open too seldom..around 5% of your starting hands, the field folds around because of your perceived range. A seldom open limp can be profitable with small pocket pairs, especially when you are looking to get into more hands agaisnt a certain spewy villian who raises 60% percent of his range from the button and c-bets every time. I find those situational open limps to be profitable in specific spots on specific tables...

I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
 
ScooperNova

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It really depends on table dynamic. I've been in several games where limping with an expanded range of starting hands can be profitable.
 
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Spewster

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I'm happy to have a non aggressive intellectual conversation here on why-in a full ring game- it isn't negative ev to occasionally open limp...or i can just "set my money on fire" and be done with this convo...i'm here to learn and would love to hear your take on why from a game theory perspective it is ALWAYS negative ev to open limp.

If you come in with an opening range of 20% of your hands you can be exploited by others three-betting you light in position...if you open too seldom..around 5% of your starting hands, the field folds around because of your perceived range. A seldom open limp can be profitable with small pocket pairs, especially when you are looking to get into more hands agaisnt a certain spewy villian who raises 60% percent of his range from the button and c-bets every time. I find those situational open limps to be profitable in specific spots on specific tables...

I'm open to being convinced otherwise.


Well, I actually thought I wouldn't post in this thread again, but this is a good question and I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer.

Look at the situation from a range vs range perspective.

You make your standart open raise from early position with 20% and you get 3bet a ton.

First of all 20% from early is way too wide from EP, consider 13-17% and second if villain 3bets every second or third hand he is playing, HE is 3betting too wide. If you see him 3betting ATs from MP or low PP's, he is way too wide for full ring.


So don't make the mistake and open limp in order to "abuse" him. All you do is giving him a good price to 3bet even wider, because now his 3bet costs even less.

When you have a maniac like this, first thing you do is tightening up your opening range.
If you still get 3bet, you start opening up your 4betting range to like AQs, JJ+ and double up his betsize. If that doesn't tune him down, tighten to 12% opening range and 4bet shove AQs and JJ+

Again - and this also applies to other spots like check raises on the flop - if someone does it too much, DON'T widen your range and lower your price. DO tighten your range and increase your price. If they 5bet shove with J9o/air on the flop...good for you, he's an idiot and ready to get stacked :)
 
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Spewster

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On a second thought (new post cause cannot edit anymore):

To give you a very extreme example. Lets say you wake up UTG with AA, you do your standart opening raise of...lets say 3BB and get 3bet. Are you happy about it? Yes of course, you 4bet him, he shoves, you call and he shows AJo. Still happy? Yes, of course.

Same goes for KK and probably also for QQ. Because you know that there are very few hands that can actually beat you (AA/AA or KK against your QQ) All other hands like Ax or lower PP's rely on a miniscule amount of outs to win: A on the flop or a set.

Ergo, you let the sucker pay to play against the top of your range.


On the other side, you open raise with 33 UTG (which is probably always a mistake in FR games) and he 3bets you. Are you happy? Probably not so much. All you can do here is to 4bet shove and hope he folds or to fold yourself, cause your 33 get beat by so many combos.

So this is the bottom of your range. and you only would play it as a bluff with marginal backup equity in case he shoves trash like AJo and doesn't connect with the board.

The trouble you are getting yourself into is caused by overplaying the middle of your UTG range. Hands like KJo, QJs/o, 99, AJo, ATo, suited connectors do not withstand much heat, so you don't want a 3bet here. You want to see a flop with them, not a 3bet. Even worse, the reverse implied odds are so massive with those hands that you will most likely win a little bit when you win and stack of when you don't. Let's say you call the 3bet with KJo and the board comes 2K7 and you get action...trouble trouble :)


Alright, we covered the hand range, let's look at the betsize. What most people do not understand is the fact that hand ranges correlate with betsize. They play a tighter range, but still give other players the same price. Let's say you open AK from UTG with 3 bb and you get 3bet.

The pot is now .5bb+1bb+3bb+9bb= 13.5bb. An idiot in MP calls 9bb with his QJo, the pot is now 22.5bb, which gives the button a little over 2:1 to call. Pot is now 31.5bb and you get 3:1 to call, which you do...and tadaaaa you're in a multiway pot OOP with a hand that has frontloaded equity, meaning that you most likely end up with TPTK or air against draws, sets, 2pair or trips ...not so good. If you don't flop an A or a K here, you need to check/fold.

Now lets say the table is lose so you raise 4bb from UTG with your AK and get 3bet.

Pot is now .5+1+4+12bb = 17.5bb. Not many idiots will call 12bb with trash and most will understand that they have no business with trash hands in a pot like this, since they just get a little over 1:1. So you most likely play heads up which is what your hand likes very much even OOP....untill someone shoves with AA or KK of course.

As far as middle PP go, do not make the mistake and limp in in early positin to set mine. Very few tables are so passive nowadays that you can get like 5 calls (which is your wet dream). Most likely you get raised, your odds go down the drain and you have to rely on implied odds and the right board texture (good luck playing your set against str8/flush draws)


TL;DR. Play the top of your range and increase price. Understand, that pots grow exponentially, so for every bb you raise the 3bettor as well as the 3rd guy in the pot have to pay 3bb more. If you raise 3bb and get a call, the pot is 7.5bb. The 1/2pot cbet will be 3.75bb.
If you raise 3.5bb, the 1/2pot cbet is now 4.25bb and if you raise 4bb, it will be 4,75. Just do a quick calculation of your raise size preflop, take a 1/2 bet pot on the flop, as well as turn and river and see how huge the difference in potsize is. And this is where your premium hands shine. You don't just raise them to get everyone to fold, but when you play KQs against KTo you neet to bloat the pot, cause when you both hit the K on the flop and you get to showdown with 1/2pot sized bets you'll get 45bb with a 3bb preflop raise and 51bb with a 3.5bb raise. That's 6bb difference


And this is what you want, e.g. the iphone effect. If the muppets want to pay 1k for a phone that does the same stuff like a 200$ phone, let them pay. If they want to play J9s against your KQs, make sure to let them pay. They might win here and there, but over a couple of hands you'll be ahead.



Conclusion: It gets interesting when the table realises, what you're doing and they start to fold. First thing is raising your bluffs (aka your low PP) 4BB and watch everyone fold and then you open up your range and then you lower the price...in this order.


As always: If you run into the same difficult spots over and over, it's most likely that you have a major leak and you get exploited to death. So think about that as well
 
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Spewster

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Finally to your point of the 60% opening raiser on the BTN and your small PP's: The odds of hitting a set are 7.5:1.
If you limp your 55 and he 3bets you, what are your pot odds? Pot: 1.5+1.5(limp)+4.5(3bet)=7.5 and you need to call 3bb. That's 7.5:3=2.5 : 1. So what you are actually doing is creating a huge -EV spot here as you rely on implied odds alone which is unlikely that they'll make up for it, as he could still hit a higher set/trips/str8 or flush and you lose the hand. You're OOP so your postflop maneuverability is pretty limited, so your fold equity goes down the pipes.

What actually makes setmining +EV is playing small pp's in position preferrably in a multiway pot on the button.
1.5+3(open raise)+3(call)= 7.5 and you need to call 3bb. That's still 2.5:1, but let's say you did not hit, the flop is dry and you get two folds after you bet from the button. You don't need a lot of this fold equity to cover up your -EV pot odds.


I'm not even covering SPR, but hopefully everyone can make an educated guess why it's moronic to setmine against a short stack...


As a bonus for all the people I welcome in my games with open arms: guys who complete the SB when its folded to them.
Consider, you're in the SB, it's folded to you and you think "well I have 84o but it costs just half a big blind, so let's see a cheap flop"
This is litterally the most stupid thing you can do.

The BB has already put money in the pot so his big blind is gone. What you are doing is giving him infinite pot odds. He has to invest zero, so he has upside with no risk. What kind of range will he play? Right: 100% range. So you just gave yourself 2:1 (.5bb to gain 1bb) against a villain with 100% range OUT OF POSITION. You can only lose here.

The second most stupid thing is completing the SB when the button just open limps. Although you are getting 4:1 here, you're still in the worst position post flop against one guy with unlimited reward/risk and a 100% range and a guy who probably has a stronger hand than you (BTN).


That was quite a wall of text now, but I hope it's comprehensive enough so everyone can understand the topic a little better. And FWIW...I also was a limper many moons ago :D
 
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