dj11
Legend
Silver Level
As one who occasionally strays from properly bankrolled limits, I can vouch for the sentiments expressed.
I take a variant path as I am a tourney player and generally try to avoid ring games like the plague on my life they have been. There is no level I feel comfortable at when ring is the subject.
The Irexes principle suggests players will find the level they lose at. Eventually I'll find that level, but after a big win, hell, almost any win, I'll try at least one tourney above my proper level. My game has changed enough in the past year that I have yet to find a game I feel uncomfortable at. I am not yet br'd for the Sunday Million, and that will be a stretch for a while to come. But I wouldn't have had 3 cashes (1st, 2nd, 8th) in 10 $26 tourney's in a week if I hadn't stretched a bit. Granted that very well could be an aberration. While I have played well since that week, well enough to win, I have seen the downside of variance.
Luckily, I won enough that it will still be a while before I am reduced to levels before I ventured into those games.
So while I agree with BR management principle in general, I have to caveat that with the occasional foray into fantasy inducing larger games.
I should add that while I still am occasionally venturing into those games, I'm currently grinding out my br at all the little sites where I still have pennies. For me, once the fees are paid, the rest is still just the game of poker, and whether it's play money or real money, if I can get past the first 1/3 of the field I find all the play remarkably similar. The only real difference I have found between a 10K play money game and a 20 buck sng, is the thrill of the win. $$$ has a real tangible effect on me. Imagine that!
I take a variant path as I am a tourney player and generally try to avoid ring games like the plague on my life they have been. There is no level I feel comfortable at when ring is the subject.
The Irexes principle suggests players will find the level they lose at. Eventually I'll find that level, but after a big win, hell, almost any win, I'll try at least one tourney above my proper level. My game has changed enough in the past year that I have yet to find a game I feel uncomfortable at. I am not yet br'd for the Sunday Million, and that will be a stretch for a while to come. But I wouldn't have had 3 cashes (1st, 2nd, 8th) in 10 $26 tourney's in a week if I hadn't stretched a bit. Granted that very well could be an aberration. While I have played well since that week, well enough to win, I have seen the downside of variance.
Luckily, I won enough that it will still be a while before I am reduced to levels before I ventured into those games.
So while I agree with BR management principle in general, I have to caveat that with the occasional foray into fantasy inducing larger games.
I should add that while I still am occasionally venturing into those games, I'm currently grinding out my br at all the little sites where I still have pennies. For me, once the fees are paid, the rest is still just the game of poker, and whether it's play money or real money, if I can get past the first 1/3 of the field I find all the play remarkably similar. The only real difference I have found between a 10K play money game and a 20 buck sng, is the thrill of the win. $$$ has a real tangible effect on me. Imagine that!
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beardyian
Scary Clown
Silver Level
Peter Principle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Excellent Mr Rex :icon_thum
Many a second in command (deputy) have not become the leader people have hoped for (ahem Mr Brown
)
buckster436
Cardschat Hall of Famer - RIP Buck
Silver Level
Great post Rex, i understand what your saying,,your young and can think in the long term at poker, as for me, i sorta think in the short term, but i dont play over my head, cause i cant afford to lose to much, i mostly play MTT`s with Guaranteed payouts or our added events at CC, its a cheap way for me to get in a MTT and make a few bucks, but it is a Grind and after 2 or 3 hours i seem to get Unraveled, never was that way, but is now,, i never used poker tracker or any other device, i just play poker the way i think is best, i just keep everything in my head and somehow at the table when a situation arises that happened before it just pops into my head,,, sometimes i think its the meds i have to take that screws my game up, or maybe its not, who knows,lol,, but i got a few tips out of your thread, so Thanks, Very Good Stuff,, buck
P.S. by the time i finish with my next post ill have forgottten what you said, thats a Big problem i have, my short term memory is not good at all,and im not kidding about it, my memory sux,,
P.S. by the time i finish with my next post ill have forgottten what you said, thats a Big problem i have, my short term memory is not good at all,and im not kidding about it, my memory sux,,
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
Very well written, and Chris made a great point that should not be overlooked about how despite databases showing ~70% winning, only ~5% will win overall, because they'll keep taking shots at levels they "know" they can beat. You always hear the advice, move up until you find the level that will net you the most profit, or basically find the level at which you first start losing money (or winning less in terms of hourly) and move back down. The problem is, poker players being the egotistical beings that they are, no one wants to admit they're losing. And of course if you were just at a level you could beat, even if you're a losing player at the current level, it's likely to just be marginal. So it's easy to complain about all the bad beats and convince yourself that you can beat the level if you ever stop running cold. Then of course the inevitable hot run comes which convinces them even more that they can beat the level. Of course they don't see it as a hot run, they assume they're finally beginning to beat it, and since they're barely losing, they won't realize until a really long time that it really can't be variance, that they actually are losing at the level. But then of course comes the argument "but I've gotten better, and recently I've been beating it, apart from the coolers", and it goes in a circle. Until they're flat out broke or they just go on tilt because they think they've been on a 6-month long downswing and then blow all their money at the higher limits.
Of course there is something to be said for getting better as you move up, I don't think I could be doing as well as I am now at the levels I'm playing at if I hadn't had the experience so far, but there comes a point where either you have to work really really hard to get better or you aren't going to be able to beat a game. And at that point you just have to suck up your pride, move down, and reap the profits there, assuming that's your motive. If you're fine playing at a slightly unprofitable level for the challenge and fun, that's another thing entirely. But if we take the assumption that the main reason someone plays and moves up the levels is for money, the only way to be a winning player is to either swallow your pride and choose money over pride, or of course to be one of the best in the world that can beat the 1k/2k games. A third option obviously is that when you can't beat a level to really study the game, see what you can learn, and attempt to improve to the point where you CAN beat the level. Anyway, enough rambling, basically Irexes makes a great point lol.
Of course there is something to be said for getting better as you move up, I don't think I could be doing as well as I am now at the levels I'm playing at if I hadn't had the experience so far, but there comes a point where either you have to work really really hard to get better or you aren't going to be able to beat a game. And at that point you just have to suck up your pride, move down, and reap the profits there, assuming that's your motive. If you're fine playing at a slightly unprofitable level for the challenge and fun, that's another thing entirely. But if we take the assumption that the main reason someone plays and moves up the levels is for money, the only way to be a winning player is to either swallow your pride and choose money over pride, or of course to be one of the best in the world that can beat the 1k/2k games. A third option obviously is that when you can't beat a level to really study the game, see what you can learn, and attempt to improve to the point where you CAN beat the level. Anyway, enough rambling, basically Irexes makes a great point lol.
Gesshoo
RIP Buck.
Silver Level
I'm really enjoying reading this, but had to stop for a second - this is from my # 1 favourite movie, and I couldn't let the quote go un-recognized! Now, back to the thread....
Gesshoo
RIP Buck.
Silver Level
I know that I am well, well down the pecking order in terms of poker expertise & knowledge, but to me this is so incredibly huge. Any successful professional gambler takes the long view. It is a job, a profession, and the objective of the job is to make money.
The top poker pros would ALL love to win the main event, but they see it for what it is - a crap-shoot. To the top guys, it is probably a bit like how the better players at CC look at a big free-roll. It'd be nice to win for the ego (and for the prize-money) but realistically it is a long-shot.
They make their money and make a living by running their businesses successfully. $50k here, $200k there....bigger amounts, but the same principle that Rex avows so well. I am sure they (mostly) don't win their money in the TV shows where they all play each other - they make it in games they pick wisely, against weaker players that they KNOW they can beat over time.
Also, it is devoid of ego. It is a job. If you are losing, change what you are doing. Play elsewhere. Change your stakes. The measurement of how good a player you are is $$$. If you are losing, you are playing above your level. If you are playing low-level, it is relatively inexpensive and a learning process, possibly. If you are playing higher stakes and losing, you are probably outclassed. Forget ego, face reality.
I like this point. Calling what you feel in your soul is a bluff for $10, may not be such an easy call for $1,000.....as players move up in stakes I do believe this can be a big factor.
Great post Rex, i understand what your saying,,your young and can think in the long term at poker, as for me, i sorta think in the short term, but i dont play over my head, cause i cant afford to lose to much, i mostly play MTT`s with Guaranteed payouts or our added events at CC, its a cheap way for me to get in a MTT and make a few bucks, but it is a Grind and after 2 or 3 hours i seem to get Unraveled, never was that way, but is now,, i never used poker tracker or any other device, i just play poker the way i think is best, i just keep everything in my head and somehow at the table when a situation arises that happened before it just pops into my head,,, sometimes i think its the meds i have to take that screws my game up, or maybe its not, who knows,lol,, but i got a few tips out of your thread, so Thanks, Very Good Stuff,, buck
P.S. by the time i finish with my next post ill have forgottten what you said, thats a Big problem i have, my short term memory is not good at all,and im not kidding about it, my memory sux,,
Nice post Buck - for us who live in the world where this kind of concentration, discipline and dedication is not realistically possible. That is why, like you I think, I totally respect the wonderful insight that Rex gives to playing winning poker - but I know I can't do it. I don't have the patience, discipline - or the game - to do this, but at the same time I KNOW it is right.
Great post, Rex!
reglardave
Legend
Silver Level
A lot of great posts in this thread, very thought provokimg stuff. My perspctive on a lot of this is similar to Buckmeisters in a lot of ways, and differs on some key points.
To me, the key point is self actualization. Am I a competent and competitive player, within my self imposed parameters? I certainly think so. Am I satisfied with that? No.....and yes.
Right now, I rarely play any poker outside the CC events. So many things occupy my time and effort that are of more short term urgency. Playing, and playing well, in the forum events is important to me. VERY! But, compared to going blind, or losing use of my arms and/or legs, or worse, getting sucked out by a 2 outer on the river in a $3/5 dollar game just pales in contrast.
Over time, I've built up enough of an online BR that, playing as I do now, it MIGHT outlive me, really. Does that mean I have no long term goals in the game? Certainly not, they're just well down the priority list right now.
As my condition improves, doing things with my wife takes on importance. I want to take her places I've been, show her things I've seen. Imparting the knowledge and experiences I've accumulated in my lifetime while I'm able just leaves qualifying for the Sunday mil in the dust. Then, now that I'm able once again, makinmg music with my friends assumes a more prominent role as well. It's been a part of my life as long as I can remember. I had reached a point recently where I feared that ny ability to do so was vanishing. Now that I've proved I can still play and sing the old songs, I want to do so, as often as possible. It sustains my soul' it's a healing process unto itself.......... I digress, BIG time!
So, anyway. Am I satisfied with my game, pokerwise? No, but I feel that I continue to improve. I'm a helluva a better player than when I came here. I feel I can sit down at a table with most everybody here, be competitive and not embarass myself. When the snow flies, and I'm mostly housebound, shoring up my game will come to the fore. Right now, life is intruding on my poker, and I'm letting it.
They'll be 2 dates on my tombstone; all my friends will read 'em. The part that matters is that little dash between them.
To me, the key point is self actualization. Am I a competent and competitive player, within my self imposed parameters? I certainly think so. Am I satisfied with that? No.....and yes.
Right now, I rarely play any poker outside the CC events. So many things occupy my time and effort that are of more short term urgency. Playing, and playing well, in the forum events is important to me. VERY! But, compared to going blind, or losing use of my arms and/or legs, or worse, getting sucked out by a 2 outer on the river in a $3/5 dollar game just pales in contrast.
Over time, I've built up enough of an online BR that, playing as I do now, it MIGHT outlive me, really. Does that mean I have no long term goals in the game? Certainly not, they're just well down the priority list right now.
As my condition improves, doing things with my wife takes on importance. I want to take her places I've been, show her things I've seen. Imparting the knowledge and experiences I've accumulated in my lifetime while I'm able just leaves qualifying for the Sunday mil in the dust. Then, now that I'm able once again, makinmg music with my friends assumes a more prominent role as well. It's been a part of my life as long as I can remember. I had reached a point recently where I feared that ny ability to do so was vanishing. Now that I've proved I can still play and sing the old songs, I want to do so, as often as possible. It sustains my soul' it's a healing process unto itself.......... I digress, BIG time!
So, anyway. Am I satisfied with my game, pokerwise? No, but I feel that I continue to improve. I'm a helluva a better player than when I came here. I feel I can sit down at a table with most everybody here, be competitive and not embarass myself. When the snow flies, and I'm mostly housebound, shoring up my game will come to the fore. Right now, life is intruding on my poker, and I'm letting it.
They'll be 2 dates on my tombstone; all my friends will read 'em. The part that matters is that little dash between them.
N
nick1usmc
Rock Star
Silver Level
This is a great post. Thanks. It provides a valid analysis for how to properly manage not only your bankroll, but yourself. When I first started playing, I did have a problem with thinking that I was better at this game than I was. ALthough I started out just playing freerolls, I currently have $60 at pokerstars and about $1.50 at FT. However, I have not moved up in any of my games yet. For me, I will not not move beyond the small limits until I have over $100 consistently for at least 2 months. That way, I can ensure that I am not playing above my limits. I play not for the money, but for the game. To me, there is no difference between a play game and a real game. I think that mindset helps me in the money games, as I make the same calls I would in the play games.
Irexes
Legend
Silver Level
Thanks for the comments folks, much appreciated and to Joe for appreciating the reference
Dave, the role of poker in achieving self-actualisation is a very valid one. Poker should and must be managed as part of your whole self. The game may be in essence a self-contained mathematical model but the lives of the people who play it are not. Everyone is different and the optimum role of poker in our lives should also vary hugely. We may all play to win, but I suspect we continue to play for very different reasons.
Dave, the role of poker in achieving self-actualisation is a very valid one. Poker should and must be managed as part of your whole self. The game may be in essence a self-contained mathematical model but the lives of the people who play it are not. Everyone is different and the optimum role of poker in our lives should also vary hugely. We may all play to win, but I suspect we continue to play for very different reasons.
bob_tiger
Legend
Silver Level
Thanks for the comments folks, much appreciated and to Joe for appreciating the reference
Dave, the role of poker in achieving self-actualisation is a very valid one. Poker should and must be managed as part of your whole self. The game may be in essence a self-contained mathematical model but the lives of the people who play it are not. Everyone is different and the optimum role of poker in our lives should also vary hugely. We may all play to win, but I suspect we continue to play for very different reasons.
umm by any chance, do you happen to be a writer if not write a book