This is a discussion on I'm having trouble beating micro-stakes cash games within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; (I tried to search for "micros" but couldn't really find any topic that asked for NL2 Cash Game strategy. The closest I got were people |
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I'm having trouble beating micro-stakes cash games |
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I'm having trouble beating micro-stakes cash games
(I tried to search for "micros" but couldn't really find any topic that asked for NL2 Cash Game strategy. The closest I got were people asking if NL2 was beatable, without including their current strategy - like the one a few places below this one. If I missed a post, I'm sorry).
I always had this problem. I know/have studied the basic strategy (I would even go as far as to say I know intermediate strategy). I know how to calculate odds, implied odds, I have what I consider to be a good pre-Flop strategy, etc. I'm generally a profitable player, but only as far as S&Gs and Tournaments go. 90% of the money I've profited from poker so far come from freerolls (CCs freerolls were awesome in building my bankroll), satellites and subsequent earnings in big tournaments, and small S&Gs (1-2€ at a time). But I get destroyed when playing NL2, and I have no idea why. I was wondering if you could provide some general tips, literature, or profitable strategy in terms of NL2 cash games. My general strategy (obviously it varies with position, opponents, etc.) for them has been the following: Pre-Flop raise 3xBB + 1BB/limper with TT+, AQs+; raise 3xBB (if first to enter) with 87s+, 55+, A8s+, JTs+. Calling after limpers with 22+, A2s+, J9s+, QTs+, KTs+, 56s+. Post-Flop (again, only generally): betting/calling all streets with TPGK; bet/raising with 2-pair or better (only top 2 pair - or better - if met with big action); using odds to play draws; folding River with less than 2 top pair in case of a big bet / folding if River completes a draw and he was passive on other streets. I've used some of my previous earnings to invest in a cheap HUD (Jivaro) and buy Online 6-Max NL from Harrington, that includes sections on micro and small stakes. I'll be seeing if they help when I start using them. But is my strategy broken in some fundamental way? What I find happens is that I will raise pre, someone will call with, say T6s (I've had players tell me, after I asked why they called with some trash hand, "lol a 25 cents raise xD") and then Flop will come pretty dry, I keep betting 2/3 with overpair or TPGK until the end, then get beat by their 2 pair. Other times I fold my small 2 pair because 2 others players keep raising each other, and then I find out one of them has a medium pair and the other has an overpair. And other times they have nothing but draws. I have no idea why there's a gap between my tournament performance and my NL2 performance, but I have no doubt I'm a long-term loser at NL2 right now. I accept any tips and comments! Thanks! P.S. 2: Since Portugal has only recently got out of its online poker blackout, we are only allowed to play 6-max Cash Games. Only Tournaments and S&Gs are FR. So I would appreciate if the strategy could be applied to 6-max
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most people get destroyed dont take it personally... rake is one of the biggest killers
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"The guy who invented poker was bright, but the guy who invented the chip was a genius" |
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"Pre-Flop raise 3xBB + 1BB/limper with TT+, AQs+; raise 3xBB (if first to enter) with 87s+, 55+, A8s+, JTs+. Calling after limpers with 22+, A2s+, J9s+, QTs+, KTs+, 56s+."
If I am interpreting this right you may be raising too tight and calling too loose. Also, most of the edge in tournaments come from preflop play while in cash games most of the edge comes from post flop play due to deeper stacks and multi street play.
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In your preflop range are you raising every time when first to enter the pot. If so then I would scale this back a bit as you are playing far to many connecting cards unless your strategy is loose aggressive. If that's the case then you need to be much better than your opponents after the flop as you will have to make more difficult decisions than a tight player would. My advice for the low stakes games are to play even tighter and try abc poker. Don't bet unless you have a hand and when you do get a hand push it hard. I read in Harrington on cash that when you get the nuts you should just jam and not try to lure your opponent obviously this tactic has a lot to do with your opponents tendencies. The micro stakes are tough as many player either don't care or don't know what there doing so your advanced maneuvering won't work. Good luck on the felts!
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#5
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You are most likely interpreting it right, I play pretty tight, indeed most likely too tight. I could also include KTo+ but that's pretty much it. I also forgot to include my calling range in case of a standard/3BB raise behind me. If there are no limpers, it's 99-JJ, JQs+, AT and AJ (I'll 3-bet with AQ+ and QQ+). If there are a bunch of limpers, I stretch this to include more suited connectors. More than one raise I only play QQ+, AK. Thanks for answering!
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re: Poker & I'm having trouble beating micro-stakes cash games
Always remember.
Cash game is always played with at least 100 BB and in the tournament and sng NO. This makes a lot of difference. If you lose a hand with all in, you repoe and go on ... that's how cash game players think, which is completely different from sng players and tournaments. In the tournament, you are accustomed to playing with less, well less than 100 BB. Why did you say that? Because it really makes a difference in how to play cash and sng or tournament. An AA, 22, 56th has different values for cash game and for sng / tournaments. Well, I think so. Another thing, for cash game, focus on learning to play post-flop, is fundamental. good luck.
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I believe this is from a members site, John A. It is a great start to get an idea of opening ranges by position and just play slightly tighter than this at the micros and you should be fine. I will also recommend the book Crushing the Micro Stakes by Blackrain. The book won't make you a crusher in todays game but will lay the foundation.
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Why is it that people say the game has changed a lot, though? Has it really? I understand that the poker boom was a long time ago, and nowadays there aren't so many poor players, but I still think the vast majority of them is poor. As long as TV shows keep showing professionals playing, I don't think the boom will end. I have friends who play poker, have lost all their deposits so far, but are still convinced they are good players (playing any JX) and that poker could be a very good and easy way to make a living. Even the people I personally know playing 20-50NL don't know how to calculate pot odds (although they play pretty tight). They play because they can afford to deposit 500€ whenever they lose their money, and they will have a positive month from time to time. I always had trouble knowing what has changed and which parts of the theory I should discard.
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#10
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Watch these for micro game flow and basic strategy/mentality:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdOtYent_dBMzZU7NS0rsRg Works well, most likely with best EV, but is boring =) He is NL100 grinder, but keeps puppies happy by once a moth playing in micros, so he has some experience in micro too, to be safe side respect the newer videos more. |
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Thanks for the tip, I was unaware of that channel. I usually watch this guy https://www.youtube.com/user/thepokerbank/videos but he covers a big variety of stakes and live/online so it's not clear which strategies are applicable to NL2 or not. I still don't know exactly what makes the difference between an outdated strategy and a strategy applicable for "today's games", I guess it eventually comes down to experience as you try theory out and see what works and what doesn't work. Thanks for answering
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#12
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re: Poker & I'm having trouble beating micro-stakes cash games
maybe try tightening up and really trying to focus on getting value out of the hands
also try taking more/better notes maybe review your hands after you play- and post question hands in a forum
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That said, there are always some player eager to learn, and learning is made very easy nowadays, well at least they claim so, I don’t feel it =) So if generally 10% of player win, and those are the ones advancing to next level. The likelihood those 10% include the players already studying the game is very large. This means that already at NL5 you see players with hours after hours study of the game, and obviously to play against them you need not to lose too much vs them (fish will balance). No worries though, at NL5 the nittiest of nits (10/8) will call you 3steerts with second/third pocket pairs quite often (this always amazes me). So if the nit is a big fish caller, what chances we rest have :O |
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I agree with IPlay. I read Crushing the Microstakes, and the most important parts seem to be applicable yet to this day, ex. find the fish and exploit them by value betting and getting it in with your strong hands, and play cautiously or give it up when you don't have a strong hand.
If you have any questions about it just reach out to the author with an email. Secondly, practice. I am new to poker as well, having played around 30k hands of 2nl full ring and some freerolls on pokerstars. I'm still aiming for 100k hands at 2nl in the next few months before I decide if I'm ready to move up or not. But find your own path. If you feel like you are ready to move up in just 2-3 weeks of time, do it, but be ready to drop back down again if things don't go well.
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You don't want to be calling that wide, I think that maybe you're putting yourself in tricky spots where you don't have the initiative and/or out of position post flop. You gotta play ABC poker in the beginning I would recommend BlackRain79's blog (http://www.blackrain79.com) lots of good stuff about micro stakes strategy.
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I did not know that http://www.blackrain79.com/ But the little I read I found very interesting, but apparently it only speaks of cash game.
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re: Poker & I'm having trouble beating micro-stakes cash games
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As for learning, in the book "Signal and the Noise" (for anyone interested in the stock market, it's a MUST), Nate Silver talks about poker in one chapter. He says the learning curve in poker is very steep at the beginning, and then it evens out. What he means by that is that if you know how to calculate EV and pot odds, you're already above 50% of the players. If you know how to calculate implied odds and some general theory regarding tournament theory, reading opponents, ranges, etc., you're already above 80% of the rest of the players. The most advanced topics, things that come mostly from experience, are reserved for the top 20% of all the players. And here you progress much slowly. So if you master check/raising, you only get, say, to the top 15%, instead of jumping 20-40% at once. The more you get to the top, the slower your progress. That's why I always get confused when someone says theory is outdated, because I agree with Nate. As for blackrain, would you guys think the blog and/or the book is enough, or I should I get the whole package? I can afford the book, but I'm not comfortable paying for the book + videos until I can pay them with my poker earnings. Thanks everyone for answering!!!
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#20
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Read Polished poker.. its good for micro stakes..
Just like what others said, it's the rake that makes it harder to earn in micro
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#21
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and where are you playing nl2 ?if you play on ps there are no rewards for that limit and not lot of fish and on 888 rake on nl2 is huge
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#22
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from 88 up wards we will mk 85 percent off our money
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2018
@ilostmysoul.How are you doing now after a year? Are you a winning player now?
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#24
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re: Poker & I'm having trouble beating micro-stakes cash games
Heya, I realise this post is 5 years old, so I hope by now you're crushing the microstakes, and have levelled up, but if not, you might find it helpful to consider - on the point that several people have made of calling too wide - that your calling range should be as good or better as the range of the preflop aggressor's based on their position at the table.
As for resources, PokerStars School has a very good series of YT videos about playing 6-max cash which I found really helped me adjust to playing in this format after previously only playing tournaments. It's also worth saying that the bad beats come thick and fast at the micros. People are playing based on hunches, or just wanting to see every hand to showdown. Sometimes they luck out and hit top two pair, or they hit their flush after you gave them appalling odds to call with their draw, or they suck out on the river. It happens A LOT. Because plenty of them haven't the faintest idea about pot odds, or whether a call is + or -EV. They just do what they feel like. So it's quite often very difficult to know where you are against them. But this is what makes playing against them very profitable too. I've had players call down my 1/2, 2/3 and even pot sized bets on dry board where I was the preflop aggressor and I hit top pair on the flop and found them to have bottom pair. Some of the players will do this kind of thing hand after hand after hand. They just can't believe you could possibly have a hand. There are a few things to always avoid at the micros: Limping and calling where you could be betting and raising. Obviously. Allowing multiway pots with premium holdings because you didn't use a large enough bet size to isolate. Some tables at the micros require a larger than 3BB bet to whittle down the number of players. Being terrified of bluffing because 'everyone's a calling station'. They're not all calling stations. Some of them are, and some of them will play fit-or-fold. A well-thought out bluff can still work at the micros, and I steal a lot of pots that way. Just remember to shut down as soon as you get resistance, and don't do it against sticky players. Looking at your hand and whether you hit the flop, rather than looking at the board texture and thinking about what your preflop aggression looks like. I will *always* c-bet a dry board if I raised prelop unless I've missed and am playing against a major calling station. I will also almost always bet on paired boards because the fact there are two of those cards on the board means it is less likely my opponent holds one of them, and so I can represent it and usually steal the pot even from reasonably sticky opponents. If they call, unless I have a read Betting too big postflop. A 1/2 pot c-bet needs to work 33% of the time to be profitable (and your opponent will miss the flop about 65% of the time), but I've found taking a couple of cents off doesn't change the fold frequency of my opponents. More often than not, they are either calling or folding irrespective of the bet size unless you're making a really serious overbet. So keep c-bets somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 pot so as not to burn money when c-betting as a standard play, and ramp it up when you're going for value on the turn and river. BlackRain advocates totally standardising your bet sizing but I find this only useful to a degree. Using the 'quick seat' option. Always, always go about this the long way and look at the stats for tables. Choose tables that have a high VPIP% and low stack sizes. These are your loose passive players. Play very conservatively until you've gotten a feel or the table and seen some showdowns (which are plentiful at loose passive tables). Make notes on the players and get a sense of what they think is a good hand. The more information you have on your players the better you can exploit them. Not trapping ever. It's true that you want to play for value, value, value at the micros, and so most writers suggest never slow playing a hand. I think there are occasional exceptions. For instance just today I had AK. The flop comes AAK. So I've flopped the nuts. I am only getting called by ace hands and king hands if I bet here. My opponent is very unlikely to have an ace because there's already one in my hand and two on the board. They are 25% more likely to have a king than an ace, but even so with two of them already accounted for I don't assume it will be the case all that often, and if they do have a hand like king rag they *might* fold it because of the fear of the aces. Hard to say. Plenty of them won't, but you've got players who see scare cards and play pessimistically, and you've got players who go 'I've got a pair of kings!!' and are oblivious to the threat of the aces. So I check there. If they have an ace or a king they can bet and I'll call, and if they don't they might hit the next card and want to bet there. Today the turn came a low card and I bet because they are unlikely to see that as much of a threat. Because I showed weakness on the flop, when the river came another king, they bet, I reraised and they reraised all in. They didn't even have a king, they were just looking to scare me off. So there are rare situations where slow playing a hand is the only way to get value if betting the flop just makes it extremely obvious you've got a monster hand. Most of the time you want to bet out at everything, but very occasionally you can slow play if there's no other way to get value. Those would be my tips, but of course every microstakes player has their own. If you're still playing NL2 then hopefully you'll have worked out what works for you already, but if not, give those a whirl.
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#25
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Micro stakes are a different beast and I don't think the same rules apply as they do in the bigger stakes games. I don't make too many raises in micro stakes because players enjoy shoving so much. I really use my position and don't make pots big for no reason. I do my best to only call all ins when it makes sense and fold some really big hands because most micro stakes game players play with the cards face up. While this is just my opinion it has helped me to cash in tournaments. I just won a Freeroll tournament tonight using the same strategy.
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#26
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The key to beating NL2 in particular is value, value, value and don't bluff. Get position on bad players, isolate them like crazy and just value bet them until the sun goes down.
Oh, and don't tilt when they hit their river miracles against you. This is actually where most people go wrong, and why they can't beat the game. I have made 10's of thousands of dollars playing NL2. There is really nothing complicated about beating it. Here is my complete guide to beating NL2: https://www.blackrain79.com/2019/07/how-to-beat-2nl.html
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3-Time Poker Author and Blogger: www.blackrain79.com Poker YouTuber: https://www.youtube.com/BlackRain79Poker
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#28
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There are several key areas that you are not playing a fundamentally sound game. First, let's start with your preflop bet sizing. Instead of raising 3 BBs, cut it down to 2 1/2 BBs except when you are on the button and it has been folded to you. I know that seems to be counter to what you have read/learned/heard everywhere else, but really, a min raise does not discourage anyone who wants to speculate in a pot, really, 3 BBs does not either but the difference is that when you are raising to 3 BBs preflop, then you are growing the pot exponentially so that when you are continuation betting, you are investing a significant portion of your stack in the pot. For instance: You raise to 3 BBs from UTG+1 and get 2 LP callers and the BB. that now makes the pot 12.5 BBs. If you are C-betting most flops then you are putting in 2/3 pot bets (which is a mistake, but more on that later). So you are putting in almost 8.25 more BBs making the pot now almost 21 BBs and giving great odds to the callers. Instead, if you raise it to 2.5 BBs and get the same callers, you have a pot of about 10 BBs. This makes your cbet only 7 BBs, which still gives bout the same odds, but you are investing less BBs in the pot. This allows you to play more hands and reduce variance. Your calculation for raising limped pots is slightly off as well. You should be raising 3-3.5 BBs plus 1 BB for every limper PLUS 1.5 BBs to account for the blinds. Another example. You are on the button and there are 3 limpers in front of you. You raise 6 BBs into a pot of 4.5 BBs making the total pot 10.5 BBs. This means that the first caller needs 5 call 5 BBs into a pot of almost 11 BBs giving him/her better than 2:1 (which most hands have 33% equity against the button range and once 1 player calls, then the others definitely have the correct odds to call). If instead, you account for the blinds. Then you raise 7.5 BBs into the pot, then you are making it 11.5 BBs and the first caller needs to put in 6.5 into 11.5 which is less than 3:1 and will make them fold a lot more allowing you to pick up these pots fairly often. Next, your range is good for an opening range from UTG in a 9 handed game but too tight for LJ (which is UTG in 6 handed) and it should get wider as you move to the button. You can find better opening ranges on PokerCoaching.com, UpswingPoker.com and various other sites. But the key thing is: Don't get married to these ranges. They are just starting ranges and should be adjusted according to how you table is playing. If you are in games where players are calling opens with hands like T6s, then you should open up your range and play MORE hands against these types of players, but not TOO open. You can play a range like 77+, T9s+, any two broadway, ATo and any suited ace from LJ (UTG) and be very profitable against these type of players that are speculating with too wide of a range. So, loosen up your range especially in position. Next, you don't seem to be 1. putting your opponents on a range when you are getting called and 2. are cbetting all the flops. This is a mistake. You should be taking notes on your opponents and what they will play in different positions and how they play post-flop with those different type hands. You have to be able to compare their range to your range (which is WAY more difficult in the multiway pots in microstakes). However, say you raise from LJ (UTG) with AKo and get 1 caller from the button. The flop comes 6h 7d 9h. Do you cbet here? Generally, you should not because this favors the callers range way more than it favors your range. If there are multiple callers, then this flop is sure to have hit one of them. By betting, you are only going to get called or raised by a hand that beats you or has great odds to improve to beat you and you throw away money. However, if the flop comes Qs 9d 4d, then you can cbet this flop more often because it likely missed your opponents hand and there are a lot more strong Queens in your range than your opponents. Cbetting is more about betting your whole range when you have the range advantage and the nut advantage on the flop. Which means you have stronger hands and more nut hands than your opponent is likely to. So, figuring out what range your opponent is playing is critical (because even in micro stakes, there are players who will ONLY play big cards, so even when you open in EP and they call and your get a flop like the Queen high one, you know that THAT player is likely to have a queen). Take notes, use your HUD and start learning to put your opponents on a range of hands. Once you are putting your opponents on a range of hands, then you are ready to do battle with them and figure out other mistakes that they are making (the first is playing too many hands, most microstakes players are guilty of this). This is important from the flop through the end of the hand. When cbetting, you are betting too high in general. While most players benefit from having one size to cbet, this is not actually optimal. In general, when you have the range and nut advantage, you want to be cbetting frequently and smaller with your whole range and checking when you do not have the range and nut advantage with your whole range. This makes your more difficult to play against. Here's why: say you have AA from the HJ. You raised and was called by the BB. The flop comes 743 rainbow. While you certainly have the range advantage over the BB, on this board, he is going to have more 56, 34, 86, A2's, ect than you. So, even though when he checks, you want to put in a bet here, it is smarter to check behind because he likely has missed the flop and will fold to any bet. But, by checking, you keep in his junky range and allow him to catch something on the turn and bet into you, or he misses the turn and decides to go for a bluff. Conversely, say you have K9s that you raised from the button and the BB calls. The flop comes Qd Jd 5c. The BB checks to you. This range favors your range and you should have the nut advantage over the junk that the BB is playing, so you bet small --1/3 to 1/2 the pot and you do if frequently (again, unless you have a specific read on that player) because you are going to force him to fold out his junk. Now, say you have 66 from the HJ and the button calls and the flop comes KT6 rainbow. You lead out with your set because this flop favors your range and you have the nut advantage but if the board was 376 rainbow. You would want to check/call or raise (I would almost certainly just check/call) because the smaller and middle cards should favor the caller. You might want to study this a bit more with YouTube videos on cbetting because this is just basic strategy. How you proceed after the flop should be determined by your read on your opponent, but barreling TPGK when you have a caller or callers on multiple streets is really just throwing money away. Generally, you should be betting with your best made hands and best draws, check calling marginal made hands and some draws (depending on your pot and implied odds). TPGK or even TPTK is great on dry boards like A742 rainbow when you have an ace, but much riskier on a Ah Th 9s Jd board. While in this example, AK is still a premium hand, if you get called on the flop and turn, you really want to get to showdown cheaply. That's why you should classify your hand into one of 4 catergories: Premium Made, Strong Draw, Marginal Made or Draw and Trash and treat each one accordingly as the hand progresses, keeping in mind that these hands can change from one category to another on a different street such as JTo being a strong draw on a KQ7 rainbow, to a premium made hand if an A or 9 comes or QQ being a premium made hand preflop until the flop comes AKK and you know your opponent only plays Ax or Kx, now your hand is Trash. Reevaluate every street and play accordingly. Finally, 3 betting is key in cash games especially microstakes to stay ahead of the rake. 3 bet often and in position. This is one simple strategy that you can apply immediately. You should 3 bet your whole playable range from the SB. This discourages the BB from coming along (if you call, then the BB always has the odds to come along --whether he does or not is beside the point) then you are playing out of position against at least 2 opponents. It is very hard to realize your equity in a hand from OOP. You should be raising or 3 betting almost all hands that you intend to play. Some sites (and a lot of live games) do not take rake if there is no flop. For these sites, you want to be raising or 3 betting almost all the time. You will be taking down lots of pots because the population generally do not know how to play in 3 bet pots. The other advantage is that most sites cap the amount of money they take per hand. By raising and 3 betting pots, you are building pots and as long as you are winning a nice share of them, you will be profitable. This was just a brief analysis by a player who plays (well, played -- I don't get to play as mush as I would like) a lot of microstakes up to low stakes games (I play up to $1/$2 online and $2/5 live but I LOVE to grind the .05/.10 and .25/.50 games). You CAN make money and decent money playing microstakes. You have to be aggressive and take advantage of what your opponents are doing wrong: playing too many hands, calling down with TPGK on straight and flush boards, chasing bad draws, ect. There are tons of books, videos and coaching information out there for you to study and improve your game. Best of luck to you, keep grinding.
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~ Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat ~ Sun Tzu Multiple Scorgasms Spring 2021 League Team Thread-- Spring Scorecard |
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The same thing has happened with poker. The overall poker playing population has become more educated on the game and thanks to Solvers, Game Theory, professional coaching, HUDs and similar technology, the games will continue to evolve and get harder for all players.
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~ Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat ~ Sun Tzu Multiple Scorgasms Spring 2021 League Team Thread-- Spring Scorecard |
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