i want your opinion everyone

bigjace

bigjace

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playing in a $3 rebuy mtt at noble last night it came down to the final table.blinds were 2000/4000 and i am the big blind.there is 1 call and the short stack goes all in for another 1800 and gets the two of us to call(i have A5)anyway its a rag flop and turn but there is 2 clubs on board.the other player then makes a raise and i fold.the cards are turned over and he has a qhigh flush draw v the all ins middle pair,he makes the flush on the river and knocks the lad out in 7th.when i ask him why he bet with a draw he starts mouthing off about pot odds etc.now surely at this stage of a game you want players knocked out to move you up the money list and if he hadnt got lucky with the river he wouldve doubled this player up.in this situation i only bet against the other player with a made hand as knocking the other player out is more important than the chips in the pot.just wondering what you good people think about this as he could not grasp my point at all.if he had bet it on the river when the hand was made then no problem and nh but to lose another chance to take someone out is crazy to me.anyway he got knocked out in third and i finished 2nd so sod him!$140 and i did it pure,sweet as..
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
I see your point, he probably didn't. He gave this guy a 2:1 shot at getting back into the game, at least for a while. This kind of cooperation is common at final tables and it's usually in the best interest of everyone to keep the pot down. Bluffs or semi bluffs make no sense as the 2 of you working together have a better shot of knocking him out.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
bigjace said:
now surely at this stage of a game you want players knocked out to move you up the money list
No not me. I'm looking to win tournament, not worried about getting 7th instead of 8th.

I'd just play your own cards in future, and not worry about anybody elses. People don't appreciate getting poker tips from hand losers.

If I'm in final stages of tournament and up against small stack (i.e probably pot committed) and Big Blind (i.e. has too be in hand anyway) and everybody else had folded, I'd bet with virtually any medium strength hand as there's every likelyhood it's the best (if you feel the short stack has GOT to go, rather than want's to go).

Sorry if I missed something obvious in your post - read it a few times, but couldn't really get head around the hands? (maybe try Paragraphs?).
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Of coarse if you can win the pot, by all means, take it. But you can't bluff the all-in out. When he's that short stacked, he's probably doesn't have the best possible hand and the risk he poses to the larger stacks is minimal, as is the reward. In a showdown against 2 oponents he's the dog. By not cooperating, and driving out anyone else competing for his paultry few chips without even a made hand, what have you gained? Not anymore of their chips. You are now a 2:1 underdog and if you lose, you have doubled up a player who would otherwise be gone. With more players at the table you must be more selective with your own hands. You have risked the possibility of finishing higher in the money, and because he is still relatively short stacked, he will have yet another chance to double up very soon. You don't cooperate because your a nice guy, you do it because it's the smart move.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
I've re-read the original post, and still don't really understand what you're both getting at (sorry!!!). Bigjace was BB, a small stack went all in for additional 1,800 (so had 5,800), and the post refered to "2 of us" calling. Who was the 3rd player? The post said he called before short stack went all in, (because he had a good hand -at least Q high?). When you called and he called againthere were 3 players with 5,800 each in pot right? (17,400). He bet again, to drive you out of the pot (worked!) - this extra bet wouldn't affect short stack as he was capped at initial 5,800.

I just don't see what the guy had done wrong - are you saying he shouldn't have entered the pot because the short-stack (acting afterwards) might call and have a chance to win more chips? Are you saying he shouldn't have called additional 1,800 (to win 15,000 pot) because you had previously called?

I dont get it - did you not realise his post flop bet wouldn't increase pot All-in short stack could win? That's what it looks like.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
The term is "Never bluff at a dry side-pot" I believe.

I dont get it - did you not realise his post flop bet wouldn't increase pot All-in short stack could win? That's what it looks like.
No, but it increases the chance the short stack will win the main pot by forcing the other player out.

Basically, there's one player (say Player C) all-in, and another 2 (Player A, Player B) in the pot. If Player B bets on the flop, he stands to win nothing more if Player A folds (hence he's bluffing at an empty side-pot), whereas Player C's chances of staying in the tournament have increased. So it makes little sense to bluff in this situation. Player B is still going to have to show his hand down, after all. Hence you will normally get the big stacks "checking it down" unless they have a big hand.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Now I get it, and I apologise to Bigjace and Four Dogs - this has never occured to me before! I still don't know what I would do - yes 3 in hand decreases odds of short stack surviving, but it also decreases odds of you winning (and increases chance of other opponent winning). God, Poker's complicated enough without this too worry about.

I will say though that i've made the last 30 in 2 big tournaments and won them both - I do understand i was fortunate to do so (at least one of them), but final stages are ripe for picking if you want to take some risk (i'm backed up for this from books i've read - eg harrington on hold-em).

I'd have done same as Bigjace's opponent I think. (Sorry!)

(P.S and was he bluffing? - Queen high, rag flop, chance for flush? Another card might help Bigjace?).
 
bigjace

bigjace

Guest
at the time of his bet he only had a draw,the fact that he made the flush is irrelevant to the bet that he made with sod all!glad four dogs and dorkus explained it better than me and remember every days a schoolday!!
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
I have a question about your stack sizes. I know the blinds are 2000/4000 at that point but how much did you and the other guy have in chips?

There are two theories of poker on the final table.

"Pick on the little guy." The whole table will pick on the current short stack to take him out by making it expensive whenever they enter a pot and that seems to be the most common idea. Everyone but the short stack likes this one because it means those not in the short stack can move up in the money.

The second one is "king of the hill" or basically I am going to do everything in my power to win all the chips. You do what you need to do to take the pot. That means betting into an empty sidepot when there still a chance to take someone out. He just won a 15k pot and that just gave him 3 more rounds of blinds. He did not know what you had and probably did not care. What place would he have finished if he had not gotten the 15k in that hand because you somehow beat him.
 
buckster436

buckster436

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When theres an all-in and 2 other players in the pot its a common rule to CHECK IT DOWN, you should not bet,YOU are trying to knock a player out. This has happened to me, the other guy bet and i folded with the best hand that could have beat the all-in and elimatided and the all-in player won the hand and went on to win the game. In this situation check it down>TWO HANDS AGAINST AN ALL-IN PLAYER IS BETTER THAN ONE HAND AGAINST HIM. Remember,your trying to ELIMINATE PLAYERS, and thats the important thing in this situation,especially in a BIG tournament. 500 or more players>>>> buckster436:biggrin:
 
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Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
The Cooperation Play

robwhufc said:
final stages are ripe for picking if you want to take some risk (i'm backed up for this from books i've read - eg harrington on hold-em).
"As the field shrinks and the difference between each place and its associated prize grows, a new play arises known as the cooperation play. The idea...is to maximize the chance of eliminating the short stack by refusing to bet against others who are also in the pot. The more players that remain, the better the chance of eliminating the short stack at showdown. Cooperation is more certain the smaller the small stack really is. If the small stack is just marginally smaller than the other stacks at the table, collecting his chips might become a higher goal than knocking him out, in which case, cooperation would break down."

-Harrington On Hold 'em volume II p.285
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

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I agree that in this case, the other player made a stupid play because he only had a flush draw, but I dont agree that it is always a good idea to cooperate against the short stack and check it to the river. If there are 18,000 chips in the pot and I think the other guy in the pot with me (other than the all-in guy) is on a draw whereas I have trips or 2 pair or something, I will surely bet to prevent him from catching that draw and taking all of those chips down.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Agreed, when your taliking about difference making pots, cooperation will naturally break down. But put yourself in the other guys shoes. If someone else at the table, allowed you to make your draw, in cooperation, by not betting enough to drive you away when he had the chance, it would be rude of you to then try to extract additional bets out of him when you do. You've already won the pot and you did it at the other players pleasure.
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Actually this idiot made the most stupid mistake you can make in a MTT he BLUFFED with a player allin! He was a complete MORON pot odds mean SHIT in that situation! The only thing that matter is getting the player out of the tournament! Which means you don't bet unless you HAVE him beat! Next time feel free to explain to him that it is illegal for close family members to breed! He was a complete idiot! Next time you see someone pull that crap LOL them in chat till your fingers hurt because they are just plain stupid!
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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xdmanx007 said:
Actually this idiot made the most stupid mistake you can make ... He was a complete MORON pot odds mean SHIT ... Next time feel free to explain to him that it is illegal for close family members to breed! He was a complete idiot!... they are just plain stupid!
XD, I think you need a new Strawberry Shortcake avatar along with a more serene title and signature. Let me see if I can come up with something.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
I agree that he did not do the right thing by betting it out there. You still get people who only think of themselves in situations like that and how tempting the pot is if I push the other one out.

Some people won't learn that little trick until they see it happen to them. They go all in and watch 2-4 people check it down and see someone beat them.

That is how I learned it, maybe he will learn the lesson after it happens to him once or twice.

There are a few pieces of info I would like to know before i condemn that guy to the 9th level of hell. How much did you and the other guy have in chips relative to the all in guy? Was there a big jump between the prizes for 4 - 2nd?
 
Chevvelle

Chevvelle

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pot odds HA

I think this guy you were playing has his head blown up too big.with the blinds that high and that stage in the game of course you have to gamble!!!youve already invested enough chips and if theres 2 people in the hand of course youll play your outs.dont let people fool you.see through them
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Yeah, that's another thing.

bigjace said:
when i ask him why he bet with a draw he starts mouthing off about pot odds etc.
I've only ever seen bad players do this.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
buckster436 said:
When theres an all-in and 2 other players in the pot its a common rule to CHECK IT DOWN, you should not bet,YOU are trying to knock a player out. buckster436:biggrin:
Where is that rule from?:hmmmm2: That is a new one for me. I thought the idea is to take players out and increase your chip pile. There could have been something in the way you were playing that made him bet that way. He could have been betting to keep other players out,(not bluffing an all in).
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Dorkus Malorkus said:
Yeah, that's another thing.


I've only ever seen bad players do this.
Then you take that bit of information in and remember it next time similar hand evolves. You don't say "why did you do that?" or "you played that wrong". I just cant stand Poker whiners.
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
It makes no sense whatsoever to bet during a multi-way pot when a player is all in! What exactly is it you gain? I mean what exactly do you gain by bluffing? Of course it isn;t a written rule more like a gentleman's aggreement that you aren't going to do anything stupid! Happens in virtually every tournament I play SOME genius decides to stone bluff the pot when another player is allin! I just don't see ANY benefit whatsoever.... I of course verbally berate the guy after I pick myself up off the floor!

Four Dogs said:
XD, I think you need a new Strawberry Shortcake avatar along with a more serene title and signature. Let me see if I can come up with something.
I was thinking of a picture of Barney choking a guy wearing sunglasses, a big hat, and a hawaiian shirt :)
 
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Tammy

Tammy

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robwhufc said:
I'd just play your own cards in future, and not worry about anybody elses. People don't appreciate getting poker tips from hand losers.

I'm sorry, but whether the guy was right or wrong in the grand scheme of things, I have to say I agree with this statement most of all. It happens to be my biggest pet peeve when playing poker, that and when someone starts spouting odds. :y:

Having said that, I too, like robwhufc, never would have thought of the situation that way, and will definitely keep that strategy in mind. Just goes to show I have a lot to learn! :icon_scra
 
bigjace

bigjace

Guest
me and the git who raised the pot were both around the 50000 mark at the time and XDMAN007 is a prince amongst men!
 
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