Did I play this hand correctly? (pissed off pro)

H

Hovhannes

Guest
Ok, so I'm using the term "pro" loosely since I haven't reached that level yet, but I consider myself pretty good which is why I was extremely pissed off at what happened.

Here's the scenario: 4 of us playing, me the "seasoned pro" so to speak, my wife, my friend and his wife. We each start off with 2,000 chips. We play several hands and I'm having nothing but bad luck - from one missed flop to another, to chasing the flush 3-4 times and missing it each time (mind you, I'm talking 4 spades or 4 clubs after hitting the flop and getting nothing on the Turn and the River).

What really pissed me off was that my friend's wife continually asked to see his cards and was giving him advice in another language. Like every hand that she folded. I didn't say anything since it was a friendly game but it still annoyed me.

So "the hand" came:

I flopped second highest pair on the board. Not that great, really. There was a Jack sitting there and I knew someone might have it. The two women had folded and it was down to me and my friend. The River hit, and he looked pretty unsure with a LOT of money in the middle - I'd say at least 700 chip. He still had about 850 chips, and I had 1,400.

Let me say right off the bat he had the Jack while I had a 10. He had the highest pair - but that's it, he had one pair on a very dangerous board. He unsurely threw in 200 more and I immediately went "all in" and gave him the stare. If he played, he would be out of the game.

He thought about it for an uneasy 20-30 seconds, and I could tell, no, I KNEW he was going to fold. Even top pair could be beat by a measly 2-pair, or a straight which was a possibility.

Then his wife said "let me look at your cards" and started going off in another language about how he should play - and he still didn't want to play.

Then I saw it in his eye, and knew he was going to play. If this were a cash game, mind you, it would have been an insta-fold. Top pair on a landmine board? But there was no real money involved, it was just a play game with no real stake. His wife said a few more things that pretty much translated to "play it!" and he went all in.

I knew it. I KNEW IT and I sat there so pissed off in my head I didn't know what to say. I flipped my pair of 10's and knew he was flipping over a pair of Jacks. Sure enough, he did and won almost all my money.

I bluffed. I bluffed well. Did I bluff perfectly? I'd say "hell yes!" except for the fact that he called. Did I make a mistake? Or is the only mistake that it wasn't a cash game so losing had no consequences?

God, I'm still pissed and it happened the other night.
 
Yumboltking

Yumboltking

Rock Star
isn't there a famous quote about only being able to bluff a good player? i think, yes, you made a mistake trying to bluff in a no stakes or freeroll game when you were pretty sure opponent had top pair. I agree that showing cards or table talk when not in hand is inappropriate in any poker game, friendly or not.
 
DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
If he had 850 in chips and threw in 200 of them he was left with only 650.The pot has 700 before this and 900 after.

Now you went all in which really puts him all in.So if I see it correctly he only has to put in 650 more to win 1650.That's like 2.5 to 1 pot odds and if he took the hand this far why not call for the rest of your chips?

In retrospect,we have know idea what the blinds are,your position,his position,and other important info.

To answer the OP I would have to say no,you did not play it correctly(given the info we have).Why would you go so far with a middle pair?Why would you sink so much money into the pot if the other guy keeps calling?Are the people you are playing so unskilled they will call a hand like top pair down to the river then just say"oops,I must be beat"only to fold after dumping half their stack into the pot?

I understand this isn't real money,which sounds like a good thing considering.I am in no way trying to belittle you or put you down.All I am saying is if you really want to be a "pro" or even a decent poker player,it sounds like you have a long way to go.

This forum is full of very good info and is a good place to start.Just read,read,read,and keep playing.Soon you will be able to run all over this table no matter who's wife is helping who.

Anyway,good luck and welcome to the forum.
 
H

Hovhannes

Guest
To answer the OP I would have to say no,you did not play it correctly(given the info we have).Why would you go so far with a middle pair?Why would you sink so much money into the pot if the other guy keeps calling?Are the people you are playing so unskilled they will call a hand like top pair down to the river then just say"oops,I must be beat"only to fold after dumping half their stack into the pot?

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough - He didn't dump half his stack into the pot. He had already gone down to that amount through previous hands. He committed a lot in this hand as well but this was not all of his money. If he folded he would have still had 700 out of 2000 (so he had 900 by the River and put in those 200) that isn't a bad stack when you're betting on losing and being knocked out of the game when all you have is one pair.

Also, the flop and the turn saw only 300ish chips going in from both sides before he threw in an additional 200-300 on the River. I knew he didn't have a good hand (and a single pair is not a good hand on a board that could deliver a straight) and like I said, I knew he was going to fold.

The fact that he didn't because of his wife's insistence and the fact the game didn't have any real money involved is what really got me.

If you still feel that I'm an amateur because I actually bluffed in poker, I can't really comment. But I suppose you're right that I can't prove myself, but I knew he was going to fold. That's what got my goat.
 
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DetroitJimmy

DetroitJimmy

Legend
I'm really just saying if you want an honest answer you have to give more info,that's all.
 
H

Hovhannes

Guest
I'm really just saying if you want an honest answer you have to give more info,that's all.

Sorry, it's just tough to remember everything in the hand since it was one hand out of many in a night of Poker. Can't recall the exact chip stack but I know more-or-less how it played out. Anyway, I guess I shouldn't have posted if I didn't know the exact play-by-play, chip count, etc. but I didn't really have time to write everything down :p
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
But how much did you lose ? Answer, zero so don't feel bad for trying to bluff someone who is unbluffable.
 
P

ph_il

...
He unsurely threw in 200 more and I immediately went "all in" and gave him the stare. If he played, he would be out of the game.

Oh yeah. This just screams 'PRO'.
Its all sig worthy.

Also, next time set some ground rules before the game starts. Namely: One person per hand. They can talk all they want after the hand ends, but if someone is in they shouldnt be able to give advice.
 
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tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Awards
1
bluffing a calling station in a play money game isn't big, isn't smart or isn't clever, and certainly not worth calling yourself a pro over..............
 
H

Hovhannes

Guest
Oh yeah. This just screams 'PRO'.
Its all sig worthy.

I wrote to ask a question, and I'm being pretty much attacked. Can't I write with a little bit of flair when I'm typing? There are a lot of players (pro and amateur) who stare during a game. Thanks guys for the warm replies on this forum, means a lot. Not very friendly replies at all, and probably will keep me from posting a question in the future. I guess that's what you wanted, so congrats.
 
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dj11

dj11

Legend
Awards
9
Looks to me like you believed , deep in your soul, this was gonna end up being a strip poker night.;)
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
I wrote to ask a question, and I'm being pretty much attacked. Can't I write with a little bit of flair when I'm typing? There are a lot of players (pro and amateur) who stare during a game. Thanks guys for the warm replies on this forum, means a lot. Not very friendly replies at all, and probably will keep me from posting a question in the future. I guess that's what you wanted, so congrats.

Because it really isn't a poker question, it's a "I'm good and they all suck but I lost, please give me sympathy" question. You asked for a response and the answers were:

1. Give more info if you want better responses
2. From the info you did give they had ~2.5:1 to call
3. You start out saying that they're not very good, then you try to bluff them off of top pair, that's not smart

If you want everyone to tell you how great you are and how it's not your fault they all suck, you're right, this isn't the place for you.
 
P

ph_il

...
I wrote to ask a question, and I'm being pretty much attacked. Can't I write with a little bit of flair when I'm typing? There are a lot of players (pro and amateur) who stare during a game. Thanks guys for the warm replies on this forum, means a lot. Not very friendly replies at all, and probably will keep me from posting a question in the future. I guess that's what you wanted, so congrats.

Dude, I'm just having a little fun. No one is attacking anyone. You gave us a scenario, we gave you what advice we could with the info you provided. You didnt give us a lot to work with, so we could only give you the pretty basic strats. What more do you want?

It was a friendly game of poker. Obviously no one set any rules (like 1 player per hand) but thats cool. No biggie. You're the better player there, you tried to bluff another player, it wasnt successful, and you lost.
It happens. Get over it. You dont see other pros posting in their blogs about how their bluff wasnt successful.

And to top it off, it was a free game!

Also, read Mike Caro's 'Book of Tells' and you'll find out why I made the joke about the 'giving him the stare' comment.
 
H

Hovhannes

Guest
Also, read Mike Caro's 'Book of Tells' and you'll find out why I made the joke about the 'giving him the stare' comment.

I saw that guys book in Barnes & Nobles and the cover turned me off lol - Caro looked like he was stepping out of one of those infomercials you see on TV lol

But its a good book?
 
P

ph_il

...
Dont judge a poker book by its cover. Caro's poker books are a great read and will improve your game.

In a nutshell:
Caro's Rule: Strong means Weak and Weak means Strong.

Strong means weak
Players that do 'The STARE' are usually bluffing. Not always, but usually. If you stare at your opponent after you make a bet, you are acting strong. You are trying to do everything you can in your power to keep your opponent from calling you. In this case, you are staring them down. You're probably even holding your breath and trying to make the least movements. You're sending 'I have a strong hand, so you better not call me.' vibes. But think about it, if you had a strong hand, wouldnt you want callers? You wouldnt be staring down your opponent, trying to make them fold.

Against a good, thinking player, this might work. You could do the stare down with a monster of a hand and your opponent might think 'He is showing a lot of strength here and I think he wants me to fold.' Then they call and meet the bad news. Im sure the stare you gave your friend may have actually worked, I dont know. I think he was talked into by an outside source. (see my suggestion on home game rules) Im just saying its not that reliable of a 'threat' on the tables. Good players will pick up on it easily.

Weak means strong:
Think about how you play when you flop a monster of a hand. You probably dont stare at them, right? You're probably doing everything you can to get more money. You're calling down bets, you're looking uninterested in the pot, whatever because you dont want to do anything that'll give off signs of strength.

Take a look at some pros. Phil Helmuth likes to stare down his opponents, but the thing is Helmuth will stare no matter if he is bluffing or if he has the nuts. Now look at Farha and the way he plays. He is a laid back, chatty player. He'll crack jokes when he has the nuts and when he is bluffing. So, it both situations, it can be hard to put them (especially Farha) on a hand.
A very famous stare is the Moneymaker bluff vs Farha. Look at how hard he is trying to represent a strong hand. Farha even called him off on it, but I think he doubted himself.




 
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H

Hovhannes

Guest
See, the last few replies have been what was needed. Intelligent posts in reply to my initial post, not making jabs because I dared to use the work "pro" or said that I "gave the stare"

Thanks, that is a very interesting read, I might pick up the book despite the cover ;)
 
P

ph_il

...
See, the last few replies have been what was needed. Intelligent posts in reply to my initial post, not making jabs because I dared to use the work "pro" or said that I "gave the stare"

Thanks, that is a very interesting read, I might pick up the book despite the cover ;)

Arent we all pro's in our own eyes?

Caro's books are a definite must read. I also suggest Harrington on Hold' Em vol. 1 - 3.

Also, if you have questions about what books to read on whatever subject, ask AlienGenius. He has a bazillion books.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
You could have said one player to a hand. But since you didn't call that and let her play his hand then the only complaint should be is a lack of rules set.
 
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