This is a discussion on How would You play this to avoid disaster ? within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players Replay this hand on Upswing Poker 19/20/21 (UTG): $2.23 (112 bb) triumphat (UTG+1): $2.94 (147 bb) haohaoxiansheng (MP): $1.51 |
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How would You play this to avoid disaster ? |
#1
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How would You play this to avoid disaster ?
PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker 19/20/21 (UTG): $2.23 (112 bb) triumphat (UTG+1): $2.94 (147 bb) haohaoxiansheng (MP): $1.51 (76 bb) demon200988 (MP+1): $5.08 (254 bb) ka}I{qomy cBoe (LP): $2.41 (121 bb) juventino26 (CO): $2.12 (106 bb) ShakarikiD (BU): $2.00 (100 bb) Ups I Do It (SB): $2.00 (100 bb) Web-Allecks (BB): $1.99 (100 bb) Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ups I Do It) is SB with A♣ A♠ 7 players fold, Ups I Do It (SB) raises to $0.05, Web-Allecks (BB) 3-bets to $0.16, Ups I Do It (SB) calls $0.11 Flop: ($0.32) T♣ 7♦ Q♦ (2 players) Ups I Do It (SB) checks, Web-Allecks (BB) bets $0.24, Ups I Do It (SB) raises to $0.70, Web-Allecks (BB) calls $0.46 Turn: ($1.72) K♠ (2 players) Ups I Do It (SB) bets $1.14 (all-in), Web-Allecks (BB) calls $1.13 (all-in) River: ($3.98) 7♠ (2 players, 2 all-in) Total pot: $3.98 (Rake: $0.14) Showdown: Ups I Do It (SB) shows A♣ A♠ (two pair, Aces and Sevens) (http://www.propokertools.com/simulations/unrolled?g=he&s=generic&b=Tc7dQdKs7s&h1=KdKh&h2=AcAs - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 86%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%) Web-Allecks (BB) shows K♦ K♥ (a full house, Kings full of Sevens) (http://www.propokertools.com/simulations/unrolled?g=he&s=generic&b=Tc7dQdKs7s&h1=KdKh&h2=AcAs - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 14%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%) Web-Allecks (BB) wins $3.84
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#2
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Hmmm, I think I would have made a four-bet pre-flop, and been ready to get all the chips in if the villian shoved or made a five-bet. The end result would have been the same here, but that wouldn't have been any fault of yours. (Others might disagree with this strategy, I play tournaments MUCH more than cash games, so let's wait to see what cash specialists say)
Post-flop I think you probably should have just opened the betting because you're usually still going to be ahead but that's a draw-heavy board, so you want to make your enemy pay big if he's drawing, no free cards. It seems like you were trying to get tricky with the check-raise and it kind of worked, but on another occasion your villain might have checked back and then made his flush or straight after seeing a free turn card. After the turn, I think you probably needed to slow down, I.E. check and be ready to fold to your villain's shove (with a very big sigh!) because by the time that card lands, and based on the action that preceded it, your villain could have had you beat in all sorts of ways - he could have made his straight, caught trip kings/queens/tens, or two pair (KK TT) with diamonds meaning that one of your outs is gone, etc etc. Even if you're still ahead at this point he could be holding Kd Jd, giving him top pair with (in his mind) 9 outs to the flush, 6 outs to the straight, 2 outs to trip kings and 3 outs to top two-pair, so that'd be roughly 40% odds and your shove means he only has to put in 39.8% pot to call, so if he knows his odds he's going to call! Then again, hindsight is 20-20, I'm saying all this in the knowledge that he DID make trip kings. In the same spot, maybe I'm also tempted to double-barrel like you, putting the villain on Ad Kd based on his pre- and post-flop play. But hey, that's poker, it's a game of imperfect information! I'm keen to see what advice you get from any cash specialists reading this thread.
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#3
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Pocket Aces from SB
Hello there pawelmad9 thanks for sharing your hand with the Cardschat community. Nice hand.
Let's go for parts here 1) Preflop action You Open Raise of 2.5x is default or you raised 2.5x because you had Pocket Aces (AA), and wanted desperately Big Blind to call it? If so, I think it is okay, but generally when it comes in gap to the SB we are raising 100% range versus any kind of player in a 3.5x size, because it is clearly a Steal Spot. When you raise 2.5x Villain in the BB 3bets you In Position for 3x or so, and then you call. Why did you call? Because you had notes on the player? Because you play a lot of hands with it and saw he/she does donkey moves? Because you want him to maintain his bluffs and the weaker part of his/her range? Because the guy was with his stack broken (yup, when the action starts Villain in the BB has 99 BB left, just a little but important information). Let me know your thoughts about it, but overall I don't believe the calling is bad (or good), but I usually elect to 4bet here because I will play out of position and in this case it does not matter if I get dealt Pocket Aces or better (kidding, there are no better hand preflop than AA). Position matter quite everything in Poker and we know that Postflop SB is a horrible position for equity realization, actually the worse position ever postflop for equity realization, once again, it doesn't matter if in this particular scenario you got AA. 2) Strange Flop movements, be aware! Pot size: 16 BB Flop: Tc 7d Qd You decided to check to the aggresor and then he/she bets 12 BB in a Pot of 16 BB. Again, this is, I believe the chief mistake at lower stakes, when people have a strong hand or a strong draw they bump it up and put the ships in without any concern or fear. Let us agree that the Villain BB is betting almost 100% Pot, clearly for protection and which hands need protection in a Flop texture like that, heads-up, 3bet Pot? Let us see Villain BB has these value hands when he bets so large and out of proportion for a 3bet Pot in Position, clearly trying to represent a protection for its range which includes: TT, JJ QQ, and KK (AA, almost never because of the SB Removal) and believe me 77, because sometimes a player can 3bet a 77 from the BB in position versus SB Stealing range which is 100% Range, so once in a while in a situation versus BB defense versus SB steal we might find some pocket sevens. He also could have QTs in his Range, that she/he elected to 3bet for the same reason 3betted 77. Now let's look what semi-bluffs BB might have in a spot like it: AKo, AKs, not so many combos because of the SB Pocket Aces Removal, but still he might have it, KQo, KQs, KTs, JTs, 98s, J9s, KJo, KJs, and the Diamond Flush Draw. So, when BB is betting such a strange huge amount as that already in the Flop, she/he is trying to show that "I am superman don't mess around, I am very strong now". Hero SB elects to Check-Raise to 35 BB, I believe for the same reason that SB made a huge C-bet Flop (protection). Remember, we are still in the Flop and the Pot is already gigantic. And for the times Villain hits his equity with Flush Draws and Straight Draws SB will not be able to make a Fold because of the SPR, even knowing that it would be impossible to be ahead. 3) A dangerous Turn card. Pot Size: 86 BB Board configuration turn: Tc 7d Qd Ks This is a mistake I made a ton of times playing 2 NL and 5 NL and lost more than one time my entire Bankroll doing such plays: charge the draws of my opponents and whey they hit their equity I simply forget why I charge so hard and decide to ship al the chips in, being certain that I rarely, very rarely be ahead. Let's reason together: When you Check-Raise Flop you are telling your opponent that you are VERY, very, VERY STRONG with your range, and you Raised a size that compromissed both players (your Check-Raise was 2.91x to the Villain's C-bet Pot), and that you wanna charge real bad all of his draws and forcing her/him to leave all the trashes and continue only with the best draws and hands which could include: KK, TT, 77, QQ, AJ (not so much of these because SB has AA blocking it considerably). So, when Villain in the BB calls your very strong and decent Check-Raise and the Turns complete the equity it was missing, omg, what a disaster because now we are SPR to the pot and Hero SB improved his AA to a gutter now any J give you a very strong hand, but aces sucks because as we already know, BB has a couple of JJ in his range that could complete a Straight in the River and get us coolered down. You play is not wrong but I believe it is not optimal. You could be either calling the flop, as long that Villain decided to bet a considerable size or check-raise in a form that you stack will not be committed in the River, remember that we are not playing hands, such as Pocket Aces, but our entire Range. Final thoughts: Donkey Shove Turn You have less chips in your Effective Stack than chips in the Pot which could maybe justify the Donkey-Shove Turn. SB could only calls you with Sets or Better, so for this point of view the play it's okay. But, once he/she made a huge C-bet Flop in a 3bet Pot and you Check-Raised it monstrously, you should not expect him to have Pocket Deuces (22) and call it down. When he calls you on the Flop he only calls you with the strongest part of his range, he will never call you here (I guess a decent player, at least) with Tx, Qx, 7x never! When BB calls your Check-Raise he has a lot of Two Pair such as QTs, even Q7s, who knows, he has KK, QQ which are destroying SB's Range, and once in a while he will have AJs, or AJo, but not so clear because Hero blocks almost everything about this range. So he/she will be calling your check-raise only with better hands such as Two Pairs and Sets, ans once in a lifetime he will call you with a gutter or a Flush Draw, even though he/she has no real odds to be calling it down at 2 NLHE, mostly. Thus, Villain in the BB should be a very weak recreational player to be calling it down with Flush Draws, Gutters, and losing hands, in the face of your Donkey-Shove Turn. IF the player had not made a 3bet Preflop, then I defend that it would be the best play. But a 3bet Preflop narrows its range quite a bit and then I believe it is impossible to continue. Call me nitty but we are discussing 2 NLHE not High Stakes Poker where almost anything you do is correct because the Rake structure is so easy and low. I also don't like default plays that people teach around that "you should be calling it or shoving it 100% of times this spot" because any situation in Poker is unique, genuine and also requires a genuine line of mental process. Let me know what do you think about it. The devil is in the detailed stuff. Also God. We cannot react upon a C-bet Flop of 50% Pot the same way we react to a 3bet Pot, C-bet Flop of 50% Pot, changes a lot the situation and when the bets in the Flop, against unknown ones are over 50%, like 60%, 70%, 100%, 150%, BE AWARE. Observe that the Bet sizing is one of the biggest errors players do at the Micros and learn how to take advantage upon it, or get rid off it. Regards; Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
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#4
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My opinion
You played it right. There is that 20 percent lower pocket pair to trips beating pocket rockets happens. But you dont know with zoom if the person is counting his trips or not. It is a losing bet on-line poker but they fear you. It should get you the job.
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#5
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re: Poker & How would You play this to avoid disaster ?
I would play as well as you, I will not hide. The table is not too dangerous.
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#6
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3x pre and 4bet/call
don't make your game on nl2 so complicated
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#7
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#8
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i wouldn't call the 3bet, i would def 4bet heavy while you are def in the lead, and if you take the pot down then you also make the rake... one bad flop can crack your aces... and i tend to notice people that are always complaining about getting their aces beat against some donk hand like 2/6suited, are just asking for it with slow play, or less aggressive preflop action.
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#9
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#10
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re: Poker & How would You play this to avoid disaster ?
Aballinamion gave you a very long and good answer, so I keep it short:
ALWAYS 4-bet AA - unless you are up against a player that bluffs or calls with total garbage post, but can fold or get suspicious pre flop if you 4-bet. Even then and even if you ONLY 4-bet one hand for value it should be AA. If you need to balance a so polarized range throw in some light 4-bets. But you seldom have to balance at 2NL so 4-bet your premium hands in a more linear fashion. And if you for some reason slow-play you now often have to play the hand more carefully and don't stack off by default if the SPR is higher than 3. Often just call if they bet into you, and be suspicious if the raise you or donk bet big.
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#11
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With AA vs. KK in the blinds all the money should have gone in before the flop, and then it just is, what it is. What you are doing here is just calling with the stone cold nuts, and then on the flop you check-raise with what is now only the 7. nuts. Just think about it for a while and try to explain to yourself, why that makes sense? The obvious answer is, it does not. I am not even going to spend time analysing postflop, because you should never see postflop like this again.
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#12
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I share some of my colleagues point of view, you should have made a 4 bet there and be ready to shove, that's how i would play it.
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#13
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3-bet call with AA is bad. You can call 4-bet with AA but not 3-bet. 3-bet should be raised by you and after getting 5bet from bb that is all-in. Yes, sometimes you'll lose good all-ins but that is the sens of the profitably poker to lose all-ins with +EV hands.
What about post-flop I prefer do not fan the pot with only 1 pair when opp in very tightly and have the set EV on the preflop but I don't think you played extremely bad. Your opp had I lot of AK/AQ and draws on the flop and no so many sets.
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#14
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The player with KK just played according to his chances and the king fell on the turn. He was lucky that's all. He didn’t think you could have AA. The Zoom game also exists for the cooler to come to the players.
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#15
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re: Poker & How would You play this to avoid disaster ?
Ok...you're not avoiding anything here. Micro stakes zoom poker, both of you are putting your entire stacks in regardless of how you play this preflop. 4 bet pre and villain would shove, you'd call, same result. No matter how you play this...same result. You could play it fast or slow....same result. It's just one of those hands.
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#16
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All of the chips are going to go in at some point unless he thinks he is beat. The straight possibility only appears on the turn and by then he has a set of kings and most dont fold in this situation. Nothing you can do here but accept the cooler and move on.
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#17
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I would of 4 bet and if you just collect the blinds thats ok. Your play wasnt out of order.
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#18
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Maybe you could find a fold on the turn? Tough card for an over pair. I tend to 4bet pre and look to get stacks in on the flop, so I would lose a stack there too. This instance is just a cooler.
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#19
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thanks for all answers
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#20
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re: Poker & How would You play this to avoid disaster ?
You are behind any two pair, and AJ. Do you think he calls your flop XR with AQ? In addition I would 4 bet preflight without a specific read on villain. He might be willing to get it in with 99+ and AQ+ And you will be OOP so it will be hard to get value.
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