How to play against flush draw vs straight/two pair etc

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blacknight92

Enthusiast
The thing is no matter how I play I always end up loosing against flush draws. I make nuts on flop and player who have flush draw raise big and I shove. yet he calls and make flush. It's happening everyday now. I dont know what else should I do to make flush draw player fold. Players just dont fold and keep calling and make their hand.

here are two examples
:jd4::jd4:
pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, ₹2.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com


Hero (BB) (₹163.23)
UTG (₹156.86)
MP (₹300.10)
CO (₹189)
Button (₹56.79)
SB (₹135.87)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 8
2 folds, CO raises to ₹6, Button calls ₹6, SB calls ₹5, Hero calls ₹4

Flop: (₹24) 9♠, 10, 7♠ (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets ₹10, CO calls ₹10, Button calls ₹10, SB raises to ₹76, Hero raises to ₹157.23 (All-In), CO calls ₹147.23, Button calls ₹40.79 (All-In), SB calls ₹53.87 (All-In)

Turn: (₹519.12) A♠ (4 players, 3 all-in)

River: (₹519.12) Q (4 players, 3 all-in)

Total pot: ₹519.12 | Rake: ₹26.73

Results:
Button had A, 8(one pair, Aces).
SB had 9, 7 (two pair, nines and sevens).
Hero had J, 8 (straight, Queen high).
CO had Q♠, K♠ (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: CO won ₹492.39

2nd hand
:jd4::jd4:
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, ₹10.00 BB (6 handed) - Converted at http://handhistoryconverter.com


UTG (₹2,913.43)
MP (₹1,949.78)
CO (₹1,156.84)
Button (₹480)
SB (₹1,813.13)
Hero (BB) (₹610.22)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, Q
1 fold, MP raises to ₹30, 3 folds, Hero raises to ₹95, MP calls ₹65

Flop: (₹195) 3, 5, Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets ₹70.28, Hero raises to ₹515.22 (All-In), MP calls ₹444.94

Turn: (₹1,225.44) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (₹1,225.44) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: ₹1,225.44 | Rake: ₹63.11

Results:
Hero had A, Q (two pair, Aces and Queens).
MP had 8, 6 (flush, Ace high).
Outcome: MP won ₹1,162.33
 
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Misaki

Misaki

Visionary
Awards
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I already said what I think about 2nd pot with AQs in cash game hand analysis.

about J8o if you hit the absolutely nuts in 4 way pot dont' bet small. Go for max value and max protection and bet here like 18-24 ₹. It's like : hey, I'm Santa Clause and I give you a nice price to beat my straight with your draw.

rest of the hand pretty standard. that's poker and you should get used to it.

tell me why you don't play with 200₹? you should always have at least 100bbs in your stuck. And my good advice is that you shouldn't play so high. Just play on lower limits and improve your game.
 
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blacknight92

Enthusiast
Generally how you play agianst Flush draw? Do you shove or bet heavy so if he hits you fold?
And I didnt add chips thought will do it later. Same for other table.
 
Misaki

Misaki

Visionary
Awards
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Generally how you play agianst Flush draw?

first of all you never know if you play against flush draw, because your villain has many other combinations. Just example: your villain open from EP, he is a bit tight preflop player. You have a hand like AhKc, you 3bet him, he calls. The board comes KhQh5s. There is a flush draw on the board but your villain unlikely has it because you block nuts flush draws and king and queen blocks his many pottential flush draws too. so it means it always depend from board structure.

but if you want to make it easier on possible flush draw boards then with your made hands just bet bet bet, and use larger bet sizing if you think your villain will call with his draws. When flush comes it depends. most of the time I will check/fold probalby. It depends from situation.With set you could still bet and count for a full house. There is no answer in few words to that question. It always depends what line I choose: who my villain is, positions, previous action, board structure etc.
 
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Gildog89

Rock Star
Not all flush draws are the same, so it depends.

The J8 hand I think you played fine, though I would have sized my flop bet bigger. On the AQ hand, you need to bet that flop. Check/raise all in here is a bit overplayed with TPTK imo.
 
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blacknight92

Enthusiast
first of all you never know if you play against flush draw, because your villain has many other combinations. Just example: your villain open from EP, he is a bit tight preflop player. You have a hand like AhKc, you 3bet him, he calls. The board comes KhQh5s. There is a flush draw on the board but your villain unlikely has it because you block nuts flush draws and king and queen blocks his many pottential flush draws too. so it means it always depend from bet structure.

but if you want to make it easier on possible flush draw boards then with your made hands just bet bet bet, and use larger bet sizing if you think your villain will call with his draws. When flush comes it depends. most of the time I will check/fold probalby. It depends from situation.With set you could still bet and count for a full house. There is no answer in few words to that question. It always depends what line I choose: who my villain is, positions, previous action, board structure etc.

Thank you for replying.There are few more hands I would like to post in game analysis section so I can understand where I went wrong on all this hands. Appreciate your help
 
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blacknight92

Enthusiast
Not all flush draws are the same, so it depends.

The J8 hand I think you played fine, though I would have sized my flop bet bigger. On the AQ hand, you need to bet that flop. Check/raise all in here is a bit overplayed with TPTK imo.

Henceforth I will keep it mind. Thank you for the advice.
 
S

Spewster

Enthusiast
Just my 2cts: 1st hand is just awefull play to be honest.
CO makes it 3x, BTN calls, SB calls and then you come along and call J8o?? Dude, what kind of ranges do you think you were up against so your J8o was good to play OOP against 3 villains? Who do you expect to fold against you in this spot. You really think the CO with his Khigh flush draw folds, because " oh no, BB might have J8, so I better get out of the way". You played a trash hand OOP, hit a disguised monster and got outdrawn.

Second hand is just a cooler. He had 9 outs and hit.

Overall you seem to play really crappy games, so I'd suggest you do NOT shove untill you have the absolute nuts. Learn to fold TPTK and keep the pot small by checking behind either flop or turn.


Second, both hands you were out of position. Draws heavily favour the player in position, so think about it before you bet/raise on a wet board next time. You only had TPTK on a flush&wheel draw plus he donk bet so a set is not out of the question either.

So while preflop play was good, I don't know if I'd shove in this spot. Raise 3x and see, were it goes.


Learn to pick your spot. You seem to be in a lot of spots were you run very close in equity vs villain(s), meaning you risk a lot of coinflips...and you'll lose a decent amount of them
 
PiStealth

PiStealth

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I think you should put more pressure on the turn because if turn doesn't hit he has 22% chance and if you put more pressure he will probably fold but that depends on what kind of player is and what he thinks about you.
 
VivicvrMga

VivicvrMga

Rock Star
There are people who pay with unbelievable flush draws with low cards. Sometimes I'm at the tables and wonder what the person was thinking.
 
S

Spewster

Enthusiast
Look guys, in my opinion it doesn't make any sense to go in depth with these hands.

I think anybody can see that this is lower level gameplay, were shit like this happens all the time.


@OP: as always when you look at an awkward spot, check what got you into it. In the first hand it was your preflop play that caused the problem.

Look to improve that and you'll drastically reduce the amount of spots like these ;)
 
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blacknight92

Enthusiast
Look guys, in my opinion it doesn't make any sense to go in depth with these hands.

I think anybody can see that this is lower level gameplay, were shit like this happens all the time.


@OP: as always when you look at an awkward spot, check what got you into it. In the first hand it was your preflop play that caused the problem.

Look to improve that and you'll drastically reduce the amount of spots like these ;)

I agree about first hand. I normally don't play j8o even suited from out of positions. I just wanted to see the flop and it cost me.

About AQs I still don't see why I should fold it preflop when I knew exactly what he had. I liked your advice though to pick the spot that favors me. Because you are right every-time I lose is a coin flip situation where I shove. So can you please elaborate on the point of how exactly can i know which spot should I fold or play? I want to learn about it so I coin avoid coin flip situation.
My range normally at UTG or MP is KJs+ 88+ that too if no big raise that makes me believe villain have AK/AQs or QQ+. I don't play this cards. its fold for me even on BB.
However when you sit on table with this players who raises 3BB with T7s or any small connectors, I feel like I am playing too tight.

So please advice me how should I play against players who raises 3BB from any positions
with connectors or any suited cards. example k3s as well
Also about coin-flip situations. It will be great help.

Thank you
 
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Spewster

Enthusiast
I agree about first hand. I normally don't play j8o even suited from out of positions. I just wanted to see the flop and it cost me.

About AQs I still don't see why I should fold it preflop when I knew exactly what he had. I liked your advice though to pick the spot that favors me. Because you are right every-time I lose is a coin flip situation where I shove. So can you please elaborate on the point of how exactly can i know which spot should I fold or play? I want to learn about it so I coin avoid coin flip situation.
My range normally at UTG or MP is KJs+ 88+ that too if no big raise that makes me believe villain have AK/AQs or QQ+. I don't play this cards. its fold for me even on BB.
However when you sit on table with this players who raises 3BB with T7s or any small connectors, I feel like I am playing too tight.

So please advice me how should I play against players who raises 3BB from any positions
with connectors or any suited cards. example k3s as well
Also about coin-flip situations. It will be great help.

Thank you


Hi blacknight,

Again, your AQ hand was played fine preflop. I'm not so sure about the shove on the flop. Sure, you had top pair with a strong kicker, but when you insta push, you deny yourself information. What if he had a set?

Second, the check is problematic. I'm sure you wanted to sandbag him, but if you as the preflop raiser play a check raise against a donkey, don't be surprised if he's like "fk it, I'm not afraid of this mofo, I call." Play straight forward bet, especially when you are OOP.

When it comes to avoiding tough spots, the first thing I would focus on is position. In full ring donkfests, I don't play anything in UTG except AA, KK, QQ. I raise 6x and a shortstack shoves most of the time.

On the button, I play almost any2, depending on the situation. So learn to adapt your range based on your position.

Second, I would advise to check out advancedpokertraining.com
They are a training site were you can play against AI, your hands get tracked and your leaks exposed. Then you can practise your leaks against AI again.

This helped me a lot to get better...I think they have a 30 day trial.
 
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blacknight92

Enthusiast
Again, your AQ hand was played fine preflop. I'm not so sure about the shove on the flop. Sure, you had top pair with a strong kicker, but when you insta push, you deny yourself information. What if he had a set?

About Set I was not worried because when that guy have pockets even dueces ,55, 33 he raises 10BB preflop and also with cards like KJo. When he raises 3BB it means he is playing connectors or any low suited cards or A2s,K3s etc
 
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blacknight92

Enthusiast
Second, I would advise to check out advancedpokertraining.com
They are a training site were you can play against AI, your hands get tracked and your leaks exposed. Then you can practise your leaks against AI again.

This helped me a lot to get better...I think they have a 30 day trial.

Thanks for the Advise. I will check the site.
 
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blacknight92

Enthusiast
This is poker, sometimes it's just
Your turn to get bad beats

I am not crying about Bad-beat or Why I am always getting it. When same scenario occurs again and again it means there is something wrong with your game-play and cannot toss it as Bad-beat. That's what my post is about, " what am I doing wrong?"

Everyone who plays poker will get Bad-beats. If one doesn't, it means he/she is cheating
 
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Sorin Iliescu

Rock Star
I am not crying about Bad-beat or Why I am always getting it. When same scenario occurs again and again it means there is something wrong with your game-play and cannot toss it as Bad-beat. That's what my post is about, " what am I doing wrong?"

Everyone who plays poker will get Bad-beats. If one doesn't, it means he/she is cheating
as far as i know, when you put all the chips in the middle with more than 50% equity, you will win money in the long run. if you put it with more than 90% and lose then it's just a bad beat. if you have ~70%, you are just unlucky or on a downswing
 
C

Cstarker27

Enthusiast
This is my opinion when it comes to players on flush draws:
It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a player off of a flush draw (heads up on the flop) regardless of what your hand is. I suggest taking a lower variance route and size your bet down on the flop, and make a big turn bet. Here are the two reasons why:
1. With taking the route of a larger bet sizing the player on the flush draw is not going to fold. In fact if you make it too big they might just “jam” on you and it now becomes a race with you as a slight favorite. so by jamming they don’t have to make a tough turn decision when the flush doesn’t get there, and they just get to see both turn and river cards. With a jam on the flop their % to win are pretty good against most made hands. So, since they are gonna wanna see what the turn brings, and if they hit on the turn you have now committed a larger portion of your chips and puts you in an awkward spot (say when you have a set) and they bet big with one card to come. It’s makes it hard to justify a call when the odds are now 80-20% against you, yet you’ve committed so many of your chips.
2. By giving your opponent a fair price on the flop you are controlling the pot for later streets as he is less likely to re-raise your flop bet and just take the price offered. (Like I said before, the flush draw is not folding to almost any bet on the flop.) If the flush comes in, you now have an easier decision to get away from your hand as you are not as invested in the pot. But if the Flush doesn’t come you can make a big turn bet and put them in a tough decision to continue even though they are not getting a good price to call.
Oh....
And 3. If you believe they are on a draw and raise with their draw on the flop, just call because your re-raise will not accomplish what you want and most likely will result in a jam from you opponent. And you are now effectively in the same position you were before. Re-raise the turn. Please keep in mind I’m just talking about low stakes as the money doesn’t mean as much to most recreational players. So the play is much more spewy.
 
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