I don't have Harrington's cash game v1 with me now but if I remember correctly Harrington said you can add two outs for a backdoor flush draw. Isn't this way too much? I've always thought a backdoor flush draw only counted as a fraction of one out, I've never even bothered to add any outs to what I already have since I thought the chance of a runner runner flush is so small. Why does Harrington say you can add two outs for a backdoor flush?

i saw once where it said runner runner cna be counted as one out, not sure where

many outs i hope, backdoor flashes happen often and...people often chase...well good luck...

Originally Posted by katymaty

i saw once where it said runner runner cna be counted as one out, not sure where

Yes, that`s also my understanding, although I also can`t remember where I read it. Sklansky, possibly ?

In practice, though, I just ignore it. I reckon you are kidding yourself if you figure that a runner runner draw is worth sticking around for. That is a beginner`s error.

i think it is alright to add 2 more outs and u should work out pot odds with this including straight draws and other form of outs

iLL CHASE A BACKDOOR FLUSH IF THE BOARD IS RT . tURN ALWAYS GIVES MORE OUTS AND IF IT DONT COST MUCH AND YA WANNA GAMBLE , TRY IT OUT , I DONT KNOW ALL THE ODDS ON IT BUT WHEN YA CATCH RUNNER RUNNER PEOPLE DONT EXPECT IT AND YOU CAN WIN A BIG POT

Originally Posted by mattsat

i think it is alright to add 2 more outs and u should work out pot odds with this including straight draws and other form of outs

Does adding outs for wearing your favorite shirt count, too ?? ...

Originally Posted by philivoryAKA

iLL CHASE A BACKDOOR FLUSH IF THE BOARD IS RT . tURN ALWAYS GIVES MORE OUTS AND IF IT DONT COST MUCH AND YA WANNA GAMBLE , TRY IT OUT , I DONT KNOW ALL THE ODDS ON IT BUT WHEN YA CATCH RUNNER RUNNER PEOPLE DONT EXPECT IT AND YOU CAN WIN A BIG POT

Runner, runner - chaser, chaser - why not? It's online poker, isn't it ??

(sry for dbl post. This one added while I was answering the other one)

It is actually about 2,4 outs

Originally Posted by philivoryAKA

iLL CHASE A BACKDOOR FLUSH IF THE BOARD IS RT . tURN ALWAYS GIVES MORE OUTS AND IF IT DONT COST MUCH AND YA WANNA GAMBLE , TRY IT OUT , I DONT KNOW ALL THE ODDS ON IT BUT WHEN YA CATCH RUNNER RUNNER PEOPLE DONT EXPECT IT AND YOU CAN WIN A BIG POT

What board is right to chase a runner runner? You holding Kc4c on a flop showing 10c 5d 8s? Can you honestly call any bet thinking "Oh, runner runner is possible."? Also, the turn always gives you outs? Explain to me how you have more outs in the above situation if 2h fell? or 9d. Im not quite following.

I never chase looking for runner-runner flush. I might call a small bet with say KcJc on a 10s, 3c, 5h board, but only because I can put my opponent on a smaller pair under JJ. So, Im drawing to 6 outs on the turn (3K or 3J), but if the turn is another club, 9/9c, Q/Qc, or A/Ac, I have a few more outs on the turn. Usually not a lot of situations where I'll call a flop bet with something like this, but if I think I can stack my opponent if I hit and I have the stack to gamble with, I'll go for it. Keep in mind that Im calling the flop bet to spike a K or J on the turn, not looking for runner-runner straight/flush/straight flush draw outs on the turn. If I do hit that, then it just means I have more outs to play with on the river.

Its just the odds of a spade hitting twice. So if there are 10 spades left in the deck, that's "10 outs" or 20% shot on the turn. Then there are 9 spades left in the deck, so 18% to hit by the river.

Runner runner odds = 0.2*0.18 = 0.036 or 3.6%

Runner outs are great for implied odds, and they can also help you decide wether you should float an aggressive villain, or try bluffing at a pot. No one sees that runner runner flush coming if you call on the flop

So in conclusion, count it as one out. The only reason I could see Harrington counting it as two is because you get paid off a lot easier when you do hit them.

[/thread]

Originally Posted by philthy

What board is right to chase a runner runner? You holding Kc4c on a flop showing 10c 5d 8s? Can you honestly call any bet thinking "Oh, runner runner is possible."? Also, the turn always gives you outs? Explain to me how you have more outs in the above situation if 2h fell? or 9d. Im not quite following.

I never chase looking for runner-runner flush. I might call a small bet with say KcJc on a 10s, 3c, 5h board, but only because I can put my opponent on a smaller pair under JJ. So, Im drawing to 6 outs on the turn (3K or 3J), but if the turn is another club, 9/9c, Q/Qc, or A/Ac, I have a few more outs on the turn. Usually not a lot of situations where I'll call a flop bet with something like this, but if I think I can stack my opponent if I hit and I have the stack to gamble with, I'll go for it. Keep in mind that Im calling the flop bet to spike a K or J on the turn, not looking for runner-runner straight/flush/straight flush draw outs on the turn. If I do hit that, then it just means I have more outs to play with on the river.

What board is rt? Any board that if on the turn would give you a open ended straight draw or flush draw , plain and simple. If its cheap enuff i will see it . Especially in Limit play , no-limit is a diffrent ballgame , its all in how much it costs you to see the turn.

If your gonna play super tight and thats your style and you do good with playin ultra tight , your best bet is to fold.

Me i will play tight loose aggresive and mix up my game .

Me i will play tight loose aggresive and mix up my game .

Meh, I prefer a loose passive aggressive approach.

Originally Posted by philivoryAKA

What board is rt? Any board that if on the turn would give you a open ended straight draw or flush draw , plain and simple.

So, basically a garbage board, right? If you're looking for the draw card on the turn, then the flop must've been no help to you.

So, say you're holding 5h7h and you limp in to a multi-way pot. And the flop is 6dKdAs and someone bets out about 1/3 of the pot. So, by my understanding this is the kind of flop your looking for, right? You're looking for a 4, 8, or heart on the turn (since this topic is about runner[turn], runner[river] draws)...is this the type of board you'd play, because by my understanding you're looking for any flop that might give you an OESD or FD on the turn.

Or maybe Im just not following.

Backdoor draws are only helpful in marginal situations where the added 2 outs or whatever can shift a fold to a call. Like AQd on a KcTh2d board, villain bets small, you're not sure you're getting implied odds to chase your gutshot and aren't sure your overcard is clean, but your backdoor draw is clean and makes up for it. Or whatever.

It's just a little extra value added on to your hand, obviously you're not looking to chase only the backdoor draw...

Just a fraction 'under' one out,.. so in other words,... 'one out'.

I did a little plug on an odds calculator. You only have a 10.4% chance to win the hand on the river with runner, runner.

To win, you need to hit running: 55, 77, any combination of: 57, 34, 3s4s, 48, 4s8s, 89, 8s9s, spade-spade, any combination of 3s,4s,8s,9s + random spade, or any combination of spade straight/flush card + none spade straight card.

And if we omit the flush possibility, its only about a 6.4% chance to win it by the river. So, I really dont see something like this being very profitable unless you're just getting amazing odds to chase...like a free look.

philthy you're not getting it - these types of draws are only considered in marginal situations where the extra one or two outs will shift a fold to a call, ie adding these outs to like 6 or 8 or whatever outs you already have. Chasing nothing but the backdoor draw is obviously terrible...

This is chasing pure and simple avoid it because in the long run I think it
would cost you more than you will make.

I think it is one out...10 outs on the turn then 9 on the river. You have to hit both so 10/47 * 9/46 = ~ 4% and the "approximate rule" is 1 out = ~4% for turn + river.

Somewhat useful if you are in a situation like 2 overcards + gutshot + backdoor flush for the little added % it gives you.

One out seems right but unless these cards are connected and the turn is cheap, why take an unnecessary risk? However if you bet and the turn is good then you are in a nice position to push. If you make out then be prepared to be called a donkey! lol

Well nobody is saying you should call anything with only a backdoor flush. But if you have a situation like i said with a gutshot 2 overcards and a backdoor flush draw or something then it is just 1 out tagged on the rest of the outs you have.

if you are even cosidering chasing runner runner, you are invited to my home game

Aight. That's enough "omfg, if you chase runner runner outs you are so bad at pokerzzz."

Its addressed in Harrington's book, and knowing what your odds of hitting a runner runner draw are could sway a close decision one way or another. If you don't want to consider this small edge when you're making decisions, don't. But I think there was sorta a discussion trying to happen here.

Originally Posted by c9h13no3

Aight. That's enough "omfg, if you chase runner runner outs you are so bad at pokerzzz."

Its addressed in Harrington's book, and knowing what your odds of hitting a runner runner draw are could sway a close decision one way or another. If you don't want to consider this small edge when you're making decisions, don't. But I think there was sorta a discussion trying to happen here.

There is really nothing to discuss here because the OP was just asking how many outs do you count for runner runner, not whether or not it's worth chasing.
Any GOOD poker player will tell you that if you don't hit the board and the only possible way to win the hand is runner runner, it's just wise to fold to most aggression unless you know you can bluff your opponent off a hand and if you chose to chase runner runner, then you are the type of player I am looking for to help me increase my BR

Originally Posted by Shinedown

and if you chose to chase runner runner, then you are the type of player I am looking for to help me increase my BR

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

*everyone that keeps posting* you're not getting it - these types of draws are only considered in marginal situations where the extra one or two outs will shift a fold to a call, ie adding these outs to like 6 or 8 or whatever outs you already have. Chasing nothing but the backdoor draw is obviously terrible...

God you guys are so brilliant.

Lets take a look at the opening post, shall we?

Originally Posted by OP

I don't have Harrington's cash game v1 with me now but if I remember correctly Harrington said you can add two outs for a backdoor flush draw. Isn't this way too much?

This is the first question that he asked. Lets see if anyone answered it.

So in conclusion, count it as one out. The only reason I could see Harrington counting it as two is because you get paid off a lot easier when you do hit them.

I made an attempt, some others commented that they think it counts as one out, but most everyone else is like OMFG U R CHASERZZZ LOLOLOLOLOL!!!~```ONE


I have yet to see a good argument for why Harrington says to count this as 2 outs, and it may matter in a game you're playing. For example:

-----------------------------------

A 200bb deep big stack raises PF. You call and so does a short stack from the big blind.

You have , the flop is

The big stack checks, you check, and the short stack shoves his remaining $ in and shows you his , because he is just that polite.

The pot odds you are being offered are 3:1 (the short stack bet half the pot). You have a back door flush draw, and a draw to a bigger two pair or trips. Thus, if you are counting outs, you have:

5 if you count the draw to two pair or trips (1:4 draw)
6 if you count the back door flush draw as 1 out (3.2:1 draw)
7 if you count the back door flush as 2 outs (2.6:1 draw)

So if we count the back door flush draw as 2 outs, this is a call. If we count it as 1 or 0 outs, then it is a fold.

The actual odds of you winning this hand is 23% (3.3:1), so it should be folded. But you can see how back door outs can make a difference.

Suppose we change the to the . Then this becomes a call as your odds of winning the hand will be 27%, because you'll also have a runner runner straight draw. This will add enough outs to make this hand a call.

If you didn't consider runner runner outs ever in this hand, then you would see this 2.7:1 draw as a 4:1 draw, which obviously it is not. So yeah, if you don't want to add this edge to your game, then I want YOU playing in MY homegame.

Originally Posted by nevadanick

Does adding outs for wearing your favorite shirt count, too ?? ...

what about backdoor straight draws?

That's a bit trickier, because not all of your straight cards on the turn give you an open ended straight draw. But in general, I'd count them as 1 out as well, especially if you're deep stacked. If you're not deep, then I'd probably count all of your runner runner outs as just 1 out together.

If you & your opponent are deep stacked, these runner runner outs, combined with some other outs your opponent won't see coming, can really make for a very favorable situation.

tricky ......best bet count as one......okeydokey