How do you play the nuts?

[r3l3ntl355]

I almost always slowplay the nuts. Why bet on the flop? Your opponent might have nothing and just fold. If it seems my opponent has nothing, I'll check on the flop and turn and make a small bet on the river. Of course, the nuts means a hand where your opponent is usually drawing dead. If I flop the nut straight I'll always slowplay, same with a full house. But if I have QQ and the flop comes Q of club, 10 of club, 2 of diamond, I have the nuts, but this is a very bad spot to slowplay, so I always bet to try to take down the pot.

I totally disagree with this. Bet on the flop to build a pot. If he has nothing you're likely not going to get much out of him anyway. By your method all you make from the nuts is the preflop bets unless he calls your river bet.

 

[jeffred1111]

I fondle them softly and bet to build the pot.

 

[Bentheman87]

"I totally disagree with this. Bet on the flop to build a pot. If he has nothing you're likely not going to get much out of him anyway. By your method all you make from the nuts is the preflop bets unless he calls your river bet."

By checking on the flop I'm using deception to hopefully pick up a bet later. He might not improve his hand, but if I check until the river and then bet, they will often call you with ace high even thinking you are bluffing. And if you slowplay they will often catch something to make a second best hand. So when you say "if he has nothing you're not likely to get much out of him" that's not true. It's better to with a tiny 400 chip pot with the nuts than to bet on the flop and win a 250 chip pot.

 

[blankoblanco]

I almost always slowplay the nuts. Why bet on the flop? Your opponent might have nothing and just fold. If it seems my opponent has nothing, I'll check on the flop and turn and make a small bet on the river. Of course, the nuts means a hand where your opponent is usually drawing dead. If I flop the nut straight I'll always slowplay, same with a full house. But if I have QQ and the flop comes Q of club, 10 of club, 2 of diamond, I have the nuts, but this is a very bad spot to slowplay, so I always bet to try to take down the pot.

this is a huge leak, but i'm guessing you're too closed minded to be convinced to fix this. this is how i played when i was a complete newb. my win rate is now much better. there's a reason that almost no respected pro would agree with your idea. congratulations, your method picks up a few more bets from bluffs. against any sorts of hands, your method loses value and you're missing TONS of chances to play for stacks. when you flop a big hand, you want to play for stacks. i'm not saying never to slowplay, but you play your opponent's hand range and tendencies. guess what, people generally don't love to fold. even if they do, if they have no hand no draw on the flop, there almost no card they can hit on the turn that's going to make them put a ton in. plus the lines that people like you typically take with strong hands are so transparent, despite you believing it's "deceptive". you're winning a few extra bets from bluffs and marginal hands and you're often losing whole stacks from good hands or draws or calling stations. BUILD POTS WITH BIG HANDS

 

[pantin007]

this is a huge leak, but i'm guessing you're too closed minded to be convinced to fix this. this is how i played when i was a complete newb. my win rate is now much better. there's a reason that almost no respected pro would agree with your idea. congratulations, your method picks up a few more bets from bluffs. against any sorts of hands, your method loses value and you're missing TONS of chances to play for stacks. when you flop a big hand, you want to play for stacks. i'm not saying never to slowplay, but you play your opponent's hand range and tendencies. guess what, people generally don't love to fold. even if they do, if they have no hand no draw on the flop, there almost no card they can hit on the turn that's going to make them put a ton in. plus the lines that people like you typically take with strong hands are so transparent, despite you believing it's "deceptive". you're winning a few extra bets from bluffs and marginal hands and you're often losing whole stacks from good hands or draws or calling stations. BUILD POTS WITH BIG HANDS

agreed


but LOL at the kathy liebert pic

 

[chadherczeg]

i am a big check raiser,with or without the nuts, cuz you can usually induce a bet by checking and if you check raise a lot they might put you on a bluff and come back over the top with a minimal hand like second pair or especially top pair. and then you got their hand in the vise. Betting out might induce a fold with second pair or a cold call with top pair and a possibility of a scare card on the turn to make them fold. so i prefer to check raise on occasional bluffs and then you get a lot of value when you do it with a big hand.

 

[blankoblanco]

here, to add a bit to this slowplay/not slowplay thing, this is a post from 2+2 written by a brilliant player named whitelime. he's even better than kathy liebert imo. i recommend everybody read this:

"Preflop slowplaying is bad, but postflop slowplaying is usually much worse.

I call the following "The Idiot's Monster"

Call Preflop with a drawing hand (pocket pair, suited connector)

Call raiser's flop bet when you hit your monster.

Raise the turn small (whether it's minraise or raise f/ $200 to $500).

Value bet the river.

I'm not saying to get rid of this line completely, however, pick your spots. Against most thinking players, you will not take their stack this way against an overpair. However, against some loose calling station whose entire thought process is "he bets more so he has a better hand", use this line (raising the flop is still superior) and value bet him into submission. He will never fold his TPGK.

Reasons slowplaying is bad:

1) Fastplaying is deceptive, slowplaying is not (against thinking players). You heard right. Because the overwhelming majority of players online slowplay their very strong hands, most thinking players will never see what hit them when you fastplay yours.

2) Fastplaying builds pots. This one should be obvious. You don't want streets checked when you have a very strong hand. You want the maximum amount going in on every street. When you flop a set and sense that your opponent has an overpair, pound him. Don't plan on taking half his stack. Go for it all. He probably isn't folding unless...

3) a scare card hits. I'm going to use a simple example to illustrate this point. You have 77 OOP against a preflop raiser. The flop comes T74 with a heart flush draw. You check call the flop. Think about how many turn cards could potentially kill your action. Any heart, T, J,6,3 could result in your opponent not willing to go to the felt with his overpair. Check-raising and leading out are both acceptable options. Check-calling is pretty bad.

Here is another example from a hand that I played recently:

party poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

BB ($949)
Hero ($1342)
MP ($286.12)
CO ($992)
Button ($704.35)
SB ($769.75)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, 5. SB posts a blind of $5.
Hero raises to $35, 3 folds, SB (poster) calls $30, BB calls $25.

Flop: ($105) K, 6, 6 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $70, SB calls $70, BB folds.

Turn: ($245) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $175, SB calls $175.

River: ($595) A (2 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

So many players will check the turn. Checking the turn is 100% wrong. It allows your opponent to play a small pot in a hand where he is either way ahead or way behind. Betting it also disguises your hand and most probably stacks Villain if he holds Kx. However, I forgot that an A could hit the river and potentially kill my action. The correct play in this situation is not only to bet the turn, but to bet all-in. This assures that you disguise your quads, get 95%+'s opponent's stacks all-in with Kx, and prevent a scare card (Ace) from killing your action on the river. This example illustrates how much can go wrong when you try to slowplay.

4) Your opponent doesn't bet! In the previous 77 example, I stated that check-raising and leading are both good options. The reason check-raising is equally good is because your opponent will often make a continuation bet when he misses which you would not gain if you lead. However, you should be wary of the fact that any time you check intending to trap, your opponent may check also."

 

[jeffred1111]

By checking on the flop I'm using deception to hopefully pick up a bet later. He might not improve his hand, but if I check until the river and then bet, they will often call you with ace high even thinking you are bluffing. And if you slowplay they will often catch something to make a second best hand. So when you say "if he has nothing you're not likely to get much out of him" that's not true. It's better to with a tiny 400 chip pot with the nuts than to bet on the flop and win a 250 chip pot.

Playing a game such as limit HE, I would somewhat agree that against some opponents, slowplaying in this way with the nuts is the way to go. But in NLHE, the betting amounts are tied to the pot, not to the betting structure: you must build a huge pot in order to bet huge and stack people.

Examples:

LHE FR. You have 66 against a preflop raiser in LP. 1 CC and you call in the BB. Flop comes A6Qr. Perfect for your hand. You check, EP bets, other guy CC, you just call. You figure that by raising now, you're giving away your hand strength and the ability to c/r the turn, wich will be more valuable than c/r the flop.

With the very same hand in NLHE, a flop c/r (or even better, b/3b) is mandatory since you can use the CC as a cushion to build up the pot for mister AT+: he now has better odds to call and the pot has been built for a good b/shove line on the turn.

I'll repeat that: you should bet to build the pot and you shoudl be more inclined to bet the cold hard nuts than just the regular nuts, since you'll usually have a more BS image using this line than is you just had a set you wish to slowplay.

Example:

You turn a str8 flush against an obvious set. You are OOP. If you wait for your opponent to bet, you'll be sad when he wishes to keep the pot small and check behind. Same thign if he has a small flush. Bet, make him reraise and go AI. Checking to him and slowplaying gives your opponent the luxury of going to SD cheap. WE DO NOT WANT THAT. This is a mistake according to the fundamental theorem of poker.

 

[Bentheman87]

But it's all situational. There are times where you can win more chips by slowplaying the nuts and there are times when it's better to just bet out on the flop. If there was already preflop raising and I make the nuts, usually I don't slowplay because its likely someone has a hand or overpair. But say I limp in the small blind and the BB checks and I flop the nuts, I always check to him.

Also, here's another thing to keep in mind. The more opponents you bet into on the flop, the stronger a hand you are telling them you have. So if I'm first to act with the nuts against several opponents I'll check hoping to check raise or check call (if I think I have them drawing dead). If I'm against one opponent, I'll sometimes make a half pot bet and hope they interpret it as a continuation bet and call with bottom pair.

 

[pkrook]

Go All in and hope it holds...

 

[blankoblanco]

But it's all situational. There are times where you can win more chips by slowplaying the nuts and there are times when it's better to just bet out on the flop. If there was already preflop raising and I make the nuts, usually I don't slowplay because its likely someone has a hand or overpair.

okay, kathy liebert and i agree with all of this. however in your first post in this thread you said "I almost always slowplay the nuts". now you're just saying it's sometimes, which is fine. but "almost always" is certainly too much

 

[Bentheman87]

But you guys are all assuming you know your opponenet/opponents all have very strong second best hands. If you know your opponent has a huge hand, of course you can keep betting the nuts on all the streets to build the pot obviously this is better than slowplaying because all the chips that go into the pot will be yours. But usually your opponents will have nothing or will have a weak hand and in these cases, you usually have your opponent drawing dead, and if you bet out on the flop they will usually fold. You might have 22 for example against one player and the flop comes 10 10 2 and the preflop pot is tiny. You should check here and try to win an extra bet or two later in the hand.​

 

[jeffred1111]

But you guys are all assuming you know your opponenet/opponents all have very strong second best hands. If you know your opponent has a huge hand, of course you can keep betting the nuts on all the streets to build the pot obviously this is better than slowplaying because all the chips that go into the pot will be yours. But usually your opponents will have nothing or will have a weak hand and in these cases, you usually have your opponent drawing dead, and if you bet out on the flop they will usually fold. You might have 22 for example against one player and the flop comes 10 10 2 and the preflop pot is tiny. You should check here and try to win an extra bet or two later in the hand.

The thing that I dislike about your reasoning is that most opponents know about slowplaying and they are semi-competent most of the time: they know that once you check and bet the turn on TT2Q for example, they have little chance unless they have connected with the Q. You rely on the opponent catching a card, wich is though. The potential of gain doesn't really increase on the turn against most opponents (against a villain who tries to keep you honest a lot, slowplaying has value). You say gain an extra bet or two but this isn't limit, the most you'll gain from most weak opponents is two small bets on the turn and river, while they might have called a bet on the flop too if they're willing to SD, wich is huge, since the bets on the later streets become exponentialy bigger.

Another point, if you bet the flop, some opponent can put you on air easier than if you bet the turn (on pretty much any card). This doesn't mean that slowplaying is evil, just that it is vastly overvalued: you need to have your opponent have the potential for a second best hand for it to be correct in NLHE. Remember that fastplaying can sometimes be the best deception there is.

And what are you doing playing 22 in a tiny pot ? I hope you were in the BB against one limper

 

[rmcnally]

Whenever I have the nuts (except for in rare cases, such as vs very aggro opponents), I will be betting out, to prevent peopple from drawing out on my made hand, and also because if you have a monster, you won't get too much action unless the other person connected with the board somewhat at least, and if you check-raise they will know something is fishy.

 

[SubT33]

Great thread.

Combuboom, great stuff. I think you just single-handedly increased my win rate.

I agree that slow-playing is generally overvalued. With so much poker on ESPN, it's understandable why so many fall in love with the glamor of slow-playing. But, I think this thread makes some great points.

 

[mdafka]

I AGREE WITH JRAD. WHEN THE POSIBILITY ARISES ON THE TURN THAT UR APPONENT COULD HIT A SPLIT ITS TIME TO SHUT IT DOWN BY BEING AGRESSIVE. and why do u lov 4th? or did u mean 5th?
M

just yesterday floped nut str8 in position of course ,i smooth called flop raised on the turn because the better was pot commited and on the river he caught a three outer to split the pot. lov 4 th Ultimatebet

 

[pokerkq]

NUTZ

YES SIR I AGREE 100% WITH YOU

 

[ayyaahh]

well depends on the blinds and stuff if the blind r high i would normally min bet then slowplay it unless im up against someone aggresive ill check
raise them

 

[DAssassinn]

Hard and fast my friend, many times i have made the decision to slow play the hand and try to get alot of value for my cards, sometimes it has worked, but i would have to say that more often then never i would get rivered. I do believe that i would of won alot more pots if i controlled the betting instead of letting some one else bet into me. as if they are betting they do think u are on a draw and they will go to the river aswel. i hope this helps your play abit more. GL for you future games

I agree 100% with your statment. I tend to be rivered more than most when making the correct bets.

 

[killerrat]

Playing with nuts?

Depends weather you get them on the flop, the fly, or the coffin. for you know as well as I do they change with every turn of the cards.
Flop, a 1/3 pot bet. sure you have the nuts here but you know it can be cracked. but the third lets those who know how to play you are sitting strong and expensive to play.
Turn, 1/2 pot make them pay top dollar for the one outer.
river all in.

 

[ratmantoo]

Nuts have to be played and hard!!!

Slow Playing only allows your opponent a chance of improving their hand and we DO NOT want this. Make it expensive for them! Sure you may loose a couple of chips that you may have leeched out of an aggressive player but more often than not they'll come back over the top with any viable hand.

As other posters have said the nuts change on every street! Ever flop quads and have them bust on the river to higher quads? It happens because of slow playing. The only hand that can stand and be 100% sure of winning post flop is a royal flush.

However your betting response must be in align with your table image and how you perceive the other players styles. In other words play them harder than you would an average to good hand, don't be excessive. If the table is full of aggressive players let them be aggressive, build the pot and hope your "Nuts" stand.

 

[killerrat]

ratmandoo, yes I had my flop quads busted after I went all in on the flop. I gave them no choice to fold. By slow playing you get a chance to fold, and like wise for them to fold.
And to let you know what I got busted. holding AhAd, flop comes AsAcQc, turn Jc, river 10c opponent was holding Kc 10d.
now if I would have slow played it and let him bet first and come over the top? well I do believe I would have won this hand.

 

[Bentheman87]

Well I have a positive ROI and I use the slowplay a lot. I'll even slowplay one pair sometimes. Like if I have AK and the flop comes K 2 9 all different suits, it's a good spot to slowplay. The only danger is if he has something like 77 and hits a 2 outer, or 10 9 and makes two pair or trips. But what happens a lot more often is he will make a second best hand on the turn and then I'll start betting. Remember this though, the only point of slowplaying is to deceive your opponent to thinking you have a weak hand and paying you off on the river or turn. If you have the nuts but it's obvious to everyone you're strong theres no point in slowplaying. Like if you have 99 and the flop comes Q 9 3 and someone bets and the next player raises, there's no point in slowplaying from there on, because you aren't going to fool anyone into thinking you are weak, you just called a bet and a reraise.

It's true that almost every time you slowplay you are risking getting drawn out on, but the times where you win more chips from slowplaying more than makes up for the times slowplaying backfires.

 

[blankoblanco]

It's true that almost every time you slowplay you are risking getting drawn out on, but the times where you win more chips from slowplaying more than makes up for the times slowplaying backfires.

i should add that slowplaying has slightly more merit in online tournaments because most of them are very shallow stacked so it's often not hard to get all the chips in even if you miss a street of value. however in cash games, when the stacks are 100 big blinds +, slowplaying is much worse. the times where you win more chips (like a stack) by fastplaying more than makes up for the times you collect one extra bet by slowplaying -- and this is still often the case in tournaments

 

[Bentheman87]

Here's a few examples of why slowplaying a big hand will win more chips than betting. From the example earlier when you have 2 2 and the flop comes 10 10 2. Say you raised preflop in late position and got called so the pot is decent sized. Say he has Q J. When he checks if you bet, he's going to fold, so you win a small pot. If you check, there's 6 cards he can catch to make a good, in his view, hand. The turn might come a Q, then he'll bet. You can then raise or call but he probably won't fold. IF the turn is a 5 instead of a Q and he checks it's good to check again behind him. Then you're giving him one more chance to make a hand on the river. Using the slowplay here there's a chance you can win a pot bigger than the size after the preflop betting. If you don't slowplay you will just win your preflop bet, his call, and the blinds.

All you saying "build pots with big hands", you're assuming your opponent has "something"... If for some reason you knew the opponent had K10 or JJ or even 88 in the example, then it's a good time to build the pot and bet on the flop. But remember most flops miss most hands so a lot of the times when you flop a big hand no one else will have anything. And one more thing that we haven't talked about much in this thread is preflop slowplaying. I think the only hands strong enough to slowplay preflop are AA or KK. At short tables I see a lot of players slowplaying AK or JJ-99 and losing a lot of chips. These hands can get beat very easily by rags, even a Q 2 is only a 2.5:1 dog against JJ.