How critical is favorable pot odds in a tournament?

[Dark Army]

The real benefit of favorable pot odds comes into play during cash games. In the long run, making a call with favorable pot odds is going to grow your bankroll. If the pot odds are 6:1 and your outs are 4:1, you're gonna want to make that call. Even if you happen to be real unlucky and lose that call 10 times in a row, you will eventually win that money back and more simply because 4:1 is better than 6:1. It may not happen in the same day, but who cares. You can come back tomorrow and the next day. Eventually, it will pay off.

But what about during a 2 or 3 hour tournament?

Are you going to get 6:1 vs 4:1 enough times to actually see it pay off? Will it happen at least 4 times? Are you going to get better than 6:1 vs 4:1 enough times (And win) to make up for the times it doesn't hit?

It's not like your taking the chips from that tournament and using them in the next one. It's not a cash game where you pocket your profit and try again tomorrow. When the tournament is over, you either make money or don't.

Sometimes the odds are just too juicy to ignore though. When it's 10:1 vs 4:1.....yeah; how can you not make that call? But when the odds are tighter, is there enough time in a tournament to see those odds actually pan out?

 

[playinggameswithu]

In an MTT remember the chips off the top of your stack are expendable and usable. Pre flop I look for 3 to 1 or better,though I am focused now on getting chips only post flop as pre flop all ins are a winning useless chips and losing useful buyins endeavor.

 

[Dark Army]

In an MTT remember the chips off the top of your stack are expendable and usable....

But the only use those chips have is for the tournament. You cannot cash them in for money.

I suppose if you're a grinder who plays many online tournaments at the same time, the benefit of favorable pot odds might pan out on other tables. But if you're just an occasional player who only plays a couple tournaments here and there, will the favorable pot odds increase your odds of winning a tournament at any point in the future?

I suppose so, but it doesn't seem like it.

 

[miku]

Well, really favorable pot odds just tell you instantly are you going to make money out of the hand. Because it is a +EV decision with favorable odds, it is the best possible play and thus you should always do it without thinking that it could miss. If you fold with favorable odds you just gave your equity away and lost chips instantly and that is not really optimal because you want to have as much chips as possible. Then, of course, if you are getting favorable odds and your opp has a lot behind there is also the implied odds so it can be more profitable call than it looks like: If you do not hit you can just fold. If you do hit, you can probably extract more value out of your opponent.

The other thing is, that if you always fold with, let's say break-even drawing possibilities, it comes clear for your opponents that you are very cautious about the draws and they can exploit this fact against you.

 

[oneybiggs]

i like miku,s answer,couldnt agree more.more of an off the cuff player myself and dont study enough to know the exact meaning of pot odds but i get the general idea.the more i hear these specific terms for common sense or even dare i say it sharp play,the more i realise ive learnt these things naturally without knowing what they where called,such as 3 or 4 betting for good reasons within your chosen range after considering position..check raising at the most advantageous times and so on.i believe in learning to drive in a paddock or on a beach,the road rules and such can be learnt after learning to drive haha i guess my attitudes the same at the table.seems to me pot odds ,like 3 or 4 betting are worth having some sort of system in place for,for maybe the first half to three quarters of a tourney,then the game changes of course with the rising blinds...gl at the tables all.

 

[Unashamed88]

But the only use those chips have is for the tournament. You cannot cash them in for money.

I suppose if you're a grinder who plays many online tournaments at the same time, the benefit of favorable pot odds might pan out on other tables. But if you're just an occasional player who only plays a couple tournaments here and there, will the favorable pot odds increase your odds of winning a tournament at any point in the future?

I suppose so, but it doesn't seem like it.

It absolutely does, it's a mathematical law if you will. Let me demonstrate.
If I give you $2 everytime we flip a coin and it's heads and you give me $1 everytime it's tails and we flip 100 times today is the outcome going to change if we do 100 more flips today vs 100 more flips tomorrow?

 

[Dark Army]

It absolutely does, it's a mathematical law if you will. Let me demonstrate.
If I give you $2 everytime we flip a coin and it's heads and you give me $1 everytime it's tails and we flip 100 times today is the outcome going to change if we do 100 more flips today vs 100 more flips tomorrow?

And that makes perfect sense which was my assumption before I made the thread. But still, in a single tournament, 4:1 odds just isn't all that great. 4:1 really isn't ever all that good.

You must choose between door A, B, C or D. One of them leads to a pot of gold. The others lead to fire and flames. How does 4:1 odds sound now? Pretty awful. Your gonna pick the wrong door.

In poker, you need 9 outs to achieve 4:1 odds. How often are you actually getting 9 or more outs? You need a flush draw or an open ender with an over card that might pair. I'm lucky if I hit two flushes in an entire tournament.

Believe me, I get it. In the long term it works in your favor. But sometimes it just seems like it doesn't. You still have a lousy 4:1 chance of winning. You could miss it 10 times in a row (Or hit it 3 times in a row. I hear ya).

 

[Unashamed88]

And that makes perfect sense which was my assumption before I made the thread. But still, in a single tournament, 4:1 odds just isn't all that great. 4:1 really isn't ever all that good.

You must choose between door A, B, C or D. One of them leads to a pot of gold. The others lead to fire and flames. How does 4:1 odds sound now? Pretty awful. Your gonna pick the wrong door.

In poker, you need 9 outs to achieve 4:1 odds. How often are you actually getting 9 or more outs? You need a flush draw or an open ender with an over card that might pair. I'm lucky if I hit two flushes in an entire tournament.

Believe me, I get it. In the long term it works in your favor. But sometimes it just seems like it doesn't. You still have a lousy 4:1 chance of winning. You could miss it 10 times in a row (Or hit it 3 times in a row. I hear ya).

Again your looking at it the wrong way...
It's like choosing between A, B, C, or D 100 times in a row... How often are you gonna guess the right door? 25times... so I found 25 pots of gold and you found no gold.

 

[Dark Army]

Again your looking at it the wrong way...
It's like choosing between A, B, C, or D 100 times in a row... How often are you gonna guess the right door? 25times... so I found 25 pots of gold and you found no gold.

But on your first attempt you burned yourself really bad. Destined to get this pot of gold, you tried again and again, but felt the flames 7 times in a row. When you finally got the gold on the 8th try, you had to spend so much money on medical bills that the single pot of gold wasn't enough to cover the medical expenses....so you had to borrow money. However, you realize that with 4:1 odds, you should be able to find the pot of gold enough times to pay back your loans and perhaps not get burnt much more than you already have been. LOL

 

[Unashamed88]

But on your first attempt you burned yourself really bad. Destined to get this pot of gold, you tried again and again, but felt the flames 7 times in a row. When you finally got the gold on the 8th try, you had to spend so much money on medical bills that the single pot of gold wasn't enough to cover the medical expenses....so you had to borrow money. However, you realize that with 4:1 odds, you should be able to find the pot of gold enough times to pay back your loans and perhaps not get burnt much more than you already have been. LOL

Dark I like you but you're crazy :icon_boun haha

 

[Hujiko]

In cash game it is straight forward. In tournaments however it depends on how many chips you have left both when you loose and when you fold. If the bet is like only 10% of you stack then yes make the call if you think you have the pot odds but if the bet is more then 40% of your stack (and you have sufficient number of BB in your stack to be able to make plays) you should have considerable better pot odds to make the call.

 

[Vinnielfc]

Dark I like you but you're crazy :icon_boun haha

Made me laugh.

 

[VVi10]

In cash game it is straight forward. In tournaments however it depends on how many chips you have left both when you loose and when you fold. If the bet is like only 10% of you stack then yes make the call if you think you have the pot odds but if the bet is more then 40% of your stack (and you have sufficient number of BB in your stack to be able to make plays) you should have considerable better pot odds to make the call.

Yeah, yeah, i kind of agree with that, always analyze the table and the players in the hand, so even do it that you´ll need to see the odds and then make the best action

 

[Evan Jarvis]

The real benefit of favorable pot odds comes into play during cash games. In the long run, making a call with favorable pot odds is going to grow your bankroll. If the pot odds are 6:1 and your outs are 4:1, you're gonna want to make that call. Even if you happen to be real unlucky and lose that call 10 times in a row, you will eventually win that money back and more simply because 4:1 is better than 6:1. It may not happen in the same day, but who cares. You can come back tomorrow and the next day. Eventually, it will pay off.

But what about during a 2 or 3 hour tournament?

Are you going to get 6:1 vs 4:1 enough times to actually see it pay off? Will it happen at least 4 times? Are you going to get better than 6:1 vs 4:1 enough times (And win) to make up for the times it doesn't hit?

It's not like your taking the chips from that tournament and using them in the next one. It's not a cash game where you pocket your profit and try again tomorrow. When the tournament is over, you either make money or don't.

Sometimes the odds are just too juicy to ignore though. When it's 10:1 vs 4:1.....yeah; how can you not make that call? But when the odds are tighter, is there enough time in a tournament to see those odds actually pan out?

This is some really great insight and shows that you think about tournaments very well!
It's important to think about stack utility and whether the chips gained and worth more, less or the same amount as the potential chips lost.

Harrington referred to these spots as 'inflection points' where sometimes it makes sense to take a gamble to get chips you can use (say on the bubble) whereas other times it's not worth taking a shot (where even if you double you'd still be short).

Another thing is that tournament chips as you said aren't worth 1:1. Since you are not playing a winner take all, the chips you add to your stack are usually worth less than the previous ones (even if you win the MTT you don't win 100% of the prizepool).

The one exception is when you are coming up to a bubble or final table ICM situation where you can put pressure on players if you have the big stack, then the chips can be worth 'more' due to their future utility in applying pressure and picking up more 'free chips'

Hope you find these thoughts helpful as they build on yours, and here's a video too!

 

[veltins]

The real benefit of favorable pot odds comes into play during cash games. In the long run, making a call with favorable pot odds is going to grow your bankroll. If the pot odds are 6:1 and your outs are 4:1, you're gonna want to make that call. Even if you happen to be real unlucky and lose that call 10 times in a row, you will eventually win that money back and more simply because 4:1 is better than 6:1. It may not happen in the same day, but who cares. You can come back tomorrow and the next day. Eventually, it will pay off.

But what about during a 2 or 3 hour tournament?

Are you going to get 6:1 vs 4:1 enough times to actually see it pay off? Will it happen at least 4 times? Are you going to get better than 6:1 vs 4:1 enough times (And win) to make up for the times it doesn't hit?

It's not like your taking the chips from that tournament and using them in the next one. It's not a cash game where you pocket your profit and try again tomorrow. When the tournament is over, you either make money or don't.


Sometimes the odds are just too juicy to ignore though. When it's 10:1 vs 4:1.....yeah; how can you not make that call? But when the odds are tighter, is there enough time in a tournament to see those odds actually pan out?

The pot odds thing is the most important part after the position in the table. I will always call if the pot odds gives me 6:1 or more with upto 15 % of my stack.. in early stage in an MTT its gold mine vs some as they will keep on betting small to invite us to call. If I have a backdoor flush or straight option and we will get odds like that why not esp when it will involve very little of our stack early on in the MTT. In cash games it s a different matter all together .

 

[Dark Army]

The pot odds thing is the most important part after the position in the table. I will always call if the pot odds gives me 6:1 or more with upto 15 % of my stack.. in early stage in an MTT its gold mine vs some as they will keep on betting small to invite us to call. If I have a backdoor flush or straight option and we will get odds like that why not esp when it will involve very little of our stack early on in the MTT. In cash games it s a different matter all together .

But pot odds are less critical during the early rounds because of how many big blinds you have. You can afford to make a couple questionable moves here and there because it doesn't really impact your chances to win if you lose those hands. I mean seriously, if you have 250 BB's who cares. Make a few calls that you normally wouldn't because losing the hand doesn't hurt you unless is a big percentage of your stack.

Obviously, you cannot play like this throughout the entire tournament even though many players do regardless if they realize it or not. You'll eventually need to think twice about taking these pot-shots. But are pot-odds the thing that dictates when to call, raise or fold we're in a tournament?

Pot-odds are not the only part of it, but the simple answer is yes. After all, the odds are indeed in your favor even if you might not get them to pan out before the end of the tournament. Over several tournaments they will.....which is probably the thing I didn't consider when I made this thread.

Think about online players who are grinding out 10+ tournaments a day. They can't afford to ignore pot-odds and just rely on all the other factors that go into making the right calls.

I will admit though that I watch a lot of poker streamers on Twitch and it seems like they're never really paying attention to pot-odds. I suppose they are, but I don't ever hear them talking about it and they play so quickly it makes you wonder.