Fooling the HUD

PokerVic

PokerVic

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For those of you who multi-table ring games, you probably rely on your Poker Tracker HUD data to make quick decisions. Well, I came across an interesting situation recently, and thought I'd share it.

These numbers are all estimates, as I don't have my original PT database here.

I was playing against someone who had fairly standard tight player stats for the low-level ring tables at poker stars. His VP$IP was 9% or so, and his aggression stats were high, so I assumed he was playing very select hands very aggressively.

It wasn't until I found myself on two tables with this player at once that I noticed that his raises always seemed to coincide with pots that someone had already raised. After watching him for a while, I noticed that he NEVER entered an unopened pot. He would wait for his spot, which was usually after someone had 3xBB bet and got several callers. Then, he would come over the top with a big raise. Usually, this resulted in him taking down the hand. The rare times he got called, he check-folded. He got called by a shortstack at one point, and had to show K7o as his raising hand.

So, he was just picking up dead money with well-timed aggression, right? But his VP$IP was so low that I wondered if it was possible that he simply wasn't playing his cards at all, but just looking for these opportunities to steal?

For the record, my PT database had him a significant winner, so his strategy was definitely paying off for him. And that was even after I started taking advantage of his tactic, by reraising him off pots. :)
 
Stick66

Stick66

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This just reinforces what I have been saying all along (since PT exploded): Numbers are great, but there's nothing like an actual human read on a player to help you win.

Nice going Vic.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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First off, note that K7o isn't that far out of a top 9% range. Second off Sticker's exactly right. Remember not to make any assumptions about the numbers that aren't there. VP$IP means percentage of hands where players voluntarily put money in the pot. That's it. This range could be changed by position, game conditions, money in the pot, or even just their whims (maybe they have to leave and feel like making a move).
 
nevadanick

nevadanick

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First off, note that K7o isn't that far out of a top 9% range. Second off Sticker's exactly right. Remember not to make any assumptions about the numbers that aren't there. VP$IP means percentage of hands where players voluntarily put money in the pot. That's it. This range could be changed by position, game conditions, money in the pot, or even just their whims (maybe they have to leave and feel like making a move).

Agreed. Stats from online sources cannot possibly take into account the myriad of situations encountered in online games, too numerous to even begin to list.

Tracking software is only one tool. Takes more than one tool to build a house. I have noticed many posts where someone has placed too much value on this one tool.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Remember too that his "tactic" wasn't really fooling the HUD. You just needed to look further into his stats and notice that his 3bet frequency nearly matched his VP$IP to realize that he was 3betting light and deploy counter measures. So the real problem here would be if you relied too heavily on the wrong stats or didn't have PT3 to show you his 3bet stats.

I believe there is no better way to get "reads" online that using a stat tracking program. If we infer incorrectly it's usually because we're placing too much emphasis on the wrong stat, not because we're using stats at all.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Agreed. Stats from online sources cannot possibly take into account the myriad of situations encountered in online games, too numerous to even begin to list.

Tracking software is only one tool. Takes more than one tool to build a house. I have noticed many posts where someone has placed too much value on this one tool.


Not exactly. The HUD gives us complete information. The problem is we need information not given. If we apply certain information the HUD gives us wrong, of course our results will be wrong. It would be like if you wanted to know if it was raining, checked the weather, it said it was sunny, you went outside and it was snowing. Only you checked the weather in California and you live on the East coast. You were using data to make a conclusion that you can't logically reach from that data.

Remember too that his "tactic" wasn't really fooling the HUD. You just needed to look further into his stats and notice that his 3bet frequency nearly matched his VP$IP to realize that he was 3betting light and deploy counter measures. So the real problem here would be if you relied too heavily on the wrong stats or didn't have PT3 to show you his 3bet stats.

I believe there is no better way to get "reads" online that using a stat tracking program. If we infer incorrectly it's usually because we're placing too much emphasis on the wrong stat, not because we're using stats at all.


Or basically this. VP$IP gives us information. If we use it to infer other things incorrectly this inferred number would be false.
 
MR TOYMAKER

MR TOYMAKER

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I believe that having the software is a sometime advantage. But I also believe that it can lead to too much of a relience on it . My reads are being developed thru watching betting patterns and people cards when I'm not in the hand (if they like to show I love it). I will eventually get some software. Right now as improving player I need to play without that edge. My rational is if I learned math using just calucalator and not with a paper and pencil My math would suck if I didnt have calculator. :D
 
Pothole

Pothole

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Q. are the stats based purely on action ( ie. VIOP ) or the level of stakes, ? If the latter is the case, it is easy to "pad" one's stats or distort them.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Not sure I understand the question Pothole. Generally you're seeing new players at the table so stats are just built up from that session, but when you do re-encounter someone the stat are only from that stake level.
 
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