Flopping a Monster When First to Act

[royalburrito24]

This is kind of a strategy thread that I decided to spin off of a different thread that had to do with check-raising.

VV

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/illegal-check-raise-96043/index2.html#post638757

^^^^
My question is this:

When flopping a monster hand, (i.e. set, nut flush, nut straight, full house, four of a kind, etc.) should you (1) check in hopes of a bet behind you, and then re raise over the top, (2) check and then continue your slow play with a smoothe call, (3) bet out at the pot and possibly disguising your hand even more (4) check-fold, the most deceptive move of all (they would all think you didnt have a hand!)

Example Situation:
Blinds: 50/100
your stack: 3000
villain stack: 4100

Villain in early/middle position

You are in the BB and dealt (6c,6d)

Villain comes in for a raise of 300

action is folded around to you, and you make the call.

Pot is now: 650

flop comes GIN: Ad 3c 6s

What do you do assuming your opponent has a fairly strong Ace, (maybe AK)??????

 

[vanquish]

CRai/CC depending on villain's PF raising range.

 

[Incognito]

No draw to villain, check... pause ...call.

 

[♠jczapper♠]

who needs to check fold! just muck your hands right away! lol

 

[dj11]

You can slow play this until a draw shows on the turn. If no draw on the turn, slow play it till someone makes a play at it, then shove.

 

[OzExorcist]

It's kinda dependent on our image and any reads on the opponent - as a general strategy, I'd lean towards the check-call.

But if we've got any kind of loose image, I'd be inclined to just make a straightforward value bet: if the opponent's been paying attention, he'll know we don't have to have a set to make a bet like that and maybe we even get raised back.

 

[pedroman7]

I say bet out like you have a weak ace and they have that big ace. If they dont you may not get paid off anyway or the free card may get them a draw or bigger set maybe.

 

[fomoppy]

image

the decisions listed come down to your image
if you raised preflop then continue if that is your normal play. if you called a raise preflop then check to the raiser and flat call. then lead out on turn if scary card comes out

 

[royalburrito24]

in this situation i always love to bet out if i were to put my opponent on an ace....

i feel that betting out at the pot when first to act is the most deceptive move of all, because in my experience, any time i see someone bet out at the pot (when it is heads up to the flop) is usually bluffing. I dont know, maybe my trapping ability is not that sophisticated.

 

[t1riel]

Check-call on the flop and turn. Then, bet on the river (or raise if your opponent is first to act).

 

[Insomniac_1006]

Depends on the other players. If there are alot of players calling All in, then I'd shove all in UTG.

If I am playing with a broader mix of styles, I would more than likely min raise to make them think I am a weak player. Get some money in the pot, hope that someone takes a stab at the bluff, then reraise all in.

 

[phatjose]

It depends on how monster of a hand we are talking. If I flop the absolute nuts for the board at the time (ie ace high flush, top set with no draws, etc), I will generally try and slow play it to allow someone else to catch up and make a decent enough hand to get paid off with. If I flop something strong but there is a draw out there that will beat my hand, I will usually bet out and try and push them off their draw.

Problem I've found with slow playing is that if you are at a table that has at least a few people who know what they are doing, it can be way too apparent that you are slow playing a monster (weak means strong and all that jazz). Slow playing works best when you have 2-3 loose donkeys at the table.

 

[♠jczapper♠]

i apologize for my deleted post.

 

[riverboatrat]

check -call on the flop,
check - raise on the turn.

I see a lot of players voted for betting out.

I used to like to bet out as though i was placing a probe bet, absolute minimum bet and 3 people would fold.

since I changed to check calling flop - check raising turn I seem to get more action.

Also with a min raise on the turn with a nice pause, you can always get your opponent to think you are checkraising to represent a (non existing) dominating hand and entice him to go over you again, if he does, its a shove.

 

[mendozaline]

in this situation i always love to bet out if i were to put my opponent on an ace....

i feel that betting out at the pot when first to act is the most deceptive move of all,

I agree.

I saw James Woods in an interview recently, and he started talking about poker. "Act strong when you're weak and weak when you're strong", he said.

I thought, man that's a bit obvious, no? It's like with contrarianism. If everybody is contrary, doesn't that mean we all agree again?

But betting strong when strong, and weak when weak, is more deceptive. Especially in the example above. You could have A10 and be guessing because of the pre-flop betting that no one has AJ, AQ, AK. So, if you get lucky, someone calls with with one of them figuring you're just trying to take the pot down with A10.

Besides, I'm afraid something will go wrong on the next two streets.

 

[ratmantoo]

This one i like. hate the small pairs but when you hit they are gold!!!!!

I prefer the check call approach in early position but to throw a min bet in in late position, as you'll get a few callers thinking you are bluffing.

Repeat on the turn and check raise on the river.


Heres a hand history but i pushed this one because of the the really low trips and villain is known to play low connectors.

** Game ID 33787777 starting - 2007-10-20 12:33:21
** Hell [Hold 'em] (150.00|300.00 No Limit - STT) real money

- Piper5 sitting in seat 1 with R1025.00
- ratmantoo sitting in seat 2 with R1770.00
- Sloth1 sitting in seat 4 with R920.00 [Dealer]
- Boston sitting in seat 5 with R565.00
- Nine2One sitting in seat 6 with R1495.00

Boston posted the small blind - R75.00
Nine2One posted the big blind - R150.00

** Dealing card to ratmantoo: 2 of Clubs, 2 of Diamonds
Piper5 folded
ratmantoo called - R150.00
Sloth1 folded
Boston folded
Nine2One checked

** Dealing the flop: 2 of Hearts, Jack of Clubs, 6 of Hearts
Nine2One bet - R375.00
ratmantoo raised - R750.00
Nine2One went all-in - R1120.00
ratmantoo called - R1495.00
Nine2One shows: 6 of Spades, 2 of Spades

** Dealing the turn: Ace of Spades

** Dealing the river: 3 of Clubs
ratmantoo wins R3365.00 from the main pot

End of game 33787777

 

[ph_il]

It would depend on how my opponent plays his strong A hands on pretty dry boards.

If he is one that likes to c-bet on any type of board, I'll check and let him bet out into me so I can just smooth call and entice another bet on turn. Depending on the turn card, I'll either smooth call the turn bet and go for a raise on the river or I'll check/raise the turn to try get my opponent to put me all in.

If he is someone that likes to slow play big hands on weak boards so he can check raise, then I'll bet out into him to entice a check/raise. I'll probably just smooth call the check/raise. Hopefully, I'll get another chance on the turn to get my opponent to check/raise all his chips in.

 

[vanilla sky]

bet out. ..

 

[pokertime911]

You want to slow play your cards.If you think he has ace King your in perfect shape and are almost guarenteed of winning the pot. let the big stack bet into you thinking he has a chance of picking up the pot

 

[ginNjuice]

I forget where I read it, maybe in Phil Gordons' Little Green Book, but "Most pros believe that you get more value out of a set by leading out and betting." I tend to follow this unless I'm absolutely sure that more than one person will be putting money in on the flop and I can check raise to make it look like I'm trying to steal a large pot. This is going with the old saying...better to win a small pot then lose a big pot. Leading out and betting, even if everybody folds to you, isn't all that bad of a situation. A little annoying you didn't get any value out of it but a win is a win.

 

[aliengenius]

You want to slow play your cards.If you think he has ace King your in perfect shape and are almost guarenteed of winning the pot. let the big stack bet into you thinking he has a chance of picking up the pot

If he has AK here you don't need to "slowplay".

Criteria for slowplaying according to Skansky's Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players:

1. your hand is very strong; a set certainly would qualify.
2. you will probably get everyone to fold out by betting; this is important: if there is an ace on the flop, there is probably no need to slowplay-- if tp isn't going anywhere, just build the pot.
3. the free card has good possibility to help make a second best hand
4. free card has only a small chance of outdrawing you. Also key-- slowplay on draw heavy flops at your own peril.
5. the pot is not very big-- often overlooked: if the pot is big you should be looking to take it down.

You need to have ALL of the above (not just one/a few) for the situation to dictate a slowplay.

Also, note that just because you do have all these, that doesn't mean that you should slowplay, only that it is an option! Often you will want to make your standard continuation bet if you were the preflop aggressor.

(from this post)

 

[naruto_miu]

I would have to say raise, for the simple fact that if he/she did the raising for u in the first place, then he/she would think that ur trying to bluff him/her off the pot, now most ppl would if they have a big ace reraise or call then u could call or bump it up again, but then again that's just my thought.

 

[19RK64]

you allready asume strong ace,player aint going nowhere,BET>represent the flop and hope he FIRE'S back ..most the time player going to check your strenth anyway, this hand could still lose

 

[johnmirow]

often, but not allways, it depends on dealing cards ...
flop: check - call
turn: check - call
river: small raise ( 1/2 pot )

 

[ChuckTs]

There are a lot of 'if's here, but if we assume villain has a big ace then we should probably lead out. Slowplaying or ch-r AI on the flop will be too obvious and will give him a chance at getting away from the hand.

Bet the flop, he'll assume you're probably on an ace, and he'll raise, then we can come over the top and shove. Either that or we can bet-call, then check-raise the turn where he'll definitely be committed.

ex: bet ~450, villain raises to 1500, we push, giving him callable odds and we get a stack.

Slowplaying is rarely the best option.