Duggs Deepstack thread

hackmeplz

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Uhhh, so I'm guessing he flatted pre vs. UTG open with AA??? Seems terribad unless there are mega-aggro squeezors behind.

meh it's fine I think it's actually my standard. 3-betting (especially this deep) let's people play pretty well against you obviously you don't particularly care given that you have the nuts but the ability to backraise is pretty sweet and just you're not really going to get a ton of value after 3-betting pre because your range is pretty strong. idk I'm not saying 3-betting is bad just that I don't think flatting is bad.

Also I really hate your sizing with AK there. You're making it 129 and you're literally never folding. If you do have a folding range I'd make it like 100 otherwise I just shove. Do you think he's ever flatting the 129? Do you disagree with me that you're calling a shove with 100% of your range when you do that?
 
duggs

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Yup that's a sizing error, I think it's bad to flat with the fish opening, but generally I agree
 
hackmeplz

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hmm yeah didn't realize opener was a fish the only argument for flatting is that people will probably squeeze wider to isolate the fish but then again they'll also flat wider and you'll end up in a lot more multi-way pots where you're going to be making mistakes. I personally am 3-betting this 100% when I realize it's a fish sorry should check stats/reads before commenting but it was on my phone.
 
Matt Vaughan

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meh it's fine I think it's actually my standard. 3-betting (especially this deep) let's people play pretty well against you obviously you don't particularly care given that you have the nuts but the ability to backraise is pretty sweet and just you're not really going to get a ton of value after 3-betting pre because your range is pretty strong. idk I'm not saying 3-betting is bad just that I don't think flatting is bad.

Also I really hate your sizing with AK there. You're making it 129 and you're literally never folding. If you do have a folding range I'd make it like 100 otherwise I just shove. Do you think he's ever flatting the 129? Do you disagree with me that you're calling a shove with 100% of your range when you do that?

Yup that's a sizing error, I think it's bad to flat with the fish opening, but generally I agree

Good point on sizing. Something I didn't even think about in this instance, but once you mentioned it seems super important in a spot like this. We're so deep so we have a lot of flexibility for sizing, and I'm curious if we ever do have a folding range once we size like that. And if we don't, I imagine that let's villain play virtually perfectly, tho that might not be a huge concern.

hmm yeah didn't realize opener was a fish the only argument for flatting is that people will probably squeeze wider to isolate the fish but then again they'll also flat wider and you'll end up in a lot more multi-way pots where you're going to be making mistakes. I personally am 3-betting this 100% when I realize it's a fish sorry should check stats/reads before commenting but it was on my phone.

NP, I do that a ton, but yeah I'm 3betting this particular spot all the time. Was your main reason for not wanting to 3bet in that spot that he was MP vs. UTG and narrows his range too much based on the positions? Sorry if that was obvious - seems like that's what you had to mean but I'm unsure if I'm missing any other considerations.
 
hackmeplz

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Yeah I just think the extra mistakes he's going to make with an utg range vs. my AA plus the fact that way more people squeeze vs. cold 4-bet a 3-bet of an utg open make up for the fact that we don't put as much money into the pot when we have the nuts. Also almost everyone's just flatting AK/QQ and most probably flat KK especially that deep so we don't have any coolers whereas if we flat and a guy behind has QQ/KK/AK they're probably squeezing and a lot are stacking pre (aka what happened lol).
 
duggs

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yup by default id be flatting some % of the time, this guy was already tagged as overly aggro, and UTG was fish so it made me not believe him, typically lots of people just don't have a 3betting range from there
 
Matt Vaughan

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Yeah I just think the extra mistakes he's going to make with an utg range vs. my AA plus the fact that way more people squeeze vs. cold 4-bet a 3-bet of an utg open make up for the fact that we don't put as much money into the pot when we have the nuts. Also almost everyone's just flatting AK/QQ and most probably flat KK especially that deep so we don't have any coolers whereas if we flat and a guy behind has QQ/KK/AK they're probably squeezing and a lot are stacking pre (aka what happened lol).

Cool, thanks for the added explanation. :beer:
 
duggs

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someone want to walk me through the basics of database analysis?
 
U

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I hadn't looked at your thread in a week or so, and then commented on something. And it would have been wildly out of context with the current discussion.

Unfortunately I have nothing meaningful to add to the conversation (thats probably not too far off from normal :p).

ummm.... good luck out there!
 
duggs

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late comments are always welcome, just quote the hand or comment you are referring to mate
 
duggs

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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (MP): 250 BB
CO: 235.04 BB (VPIP: 51.22, PFR: 4.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 84)
BTN: 297.74 BB (VPIP: 32.18, PFR: 25.85, 3Bet Preflop: 12.55, Hands: 1,872)
SB: 150.6 BB (VPIP: 18.91, PFR: 13.68, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 1,006)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 31.82, PFR: 0.76, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 133)
UTG: 177.3 BB (VPIP: 42.29, PFR: 27.35, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 698)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has A:spade: 9:spade:

UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, CO calls 2 BB, fold, SB calls 1.5 BB, fold

Flop: (10.2 BB, 4 players) 7:heart: T:spade: 2:spade:
SB checks, UTG bets 9.74 BB, Hero calls 9.74 BB, fold, fold

Turn: (29.68 BB, 2 players) 9:heart:
UTG bets 17 BB, Hero calls 17 BB

River: (63.68 BB, 2 players) 6:heart:
UTG bets 34 BB, Hero raises to 198 BB,

think this was a kinda cool spot to try fold out most of our opponents range, but super unneeded, i mean jamming all our 8x seems good since this villain never has better so we can fold chops or get tilt calls from worse.
 
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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (UTG): 324.88 BB
MP: 104.3 BB (VPIP: 42.86, PFR: 27.78, 3Bet Preflop: 12.73, Hands: 257)
CO: 294.98 BB (VPIP: 32.15, PFR: 25.79, 3Bet Preflop: 12.81, Hands: 1,830)
BTN: 156.64 BB (VPIP: 18.69, PFR: 13.58, 3Bet Preflop: 3.91, Hands: 991)
SB: 223.94 BB (VPIP: 28.74, PFR: 20.35, 3Bet Preflop: 7.25, Hands: 3,468)
BB: 192.3 BB (VPIP: 41.74, PFR: 27.26, 3Bet Preflop: 7.89, Hands: 613)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has J:heart: J:spade:

Hero raises to 3 BB, MP calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (10.7 BB, 3 players) 4:heart: 9:heart: 2:diamond:
BB checks, Hero bets 6.94 BB, MP calls 6.94 BB, fold

Turn: (24.58 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond:
Hero bets 15.96 BB, MP raises to 31.92 BB, Hero raises to 103 BB, MP calls 62.24 BB and is all-in
 
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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 96.14 BB (VPIP: 76.92, PFR: 46.15, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 14)
BB: 315.44 BB (VPIP: 41.10, PFR: 26.86, 3Bet Preflop: 8.16, Hands: 525)
UTG: 105.3 BB (VPIP: 25.38, PFR: 19.59, 3Bet Preflop: 5.20, Hands: 1,010)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 24.66, PFR: 16.44, 3Bet Preflop: 8.89, Hands: 228)
CO: 82.36 BB
Hero (BTN): 536.36 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has Q:club: J:heart:

fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, CO calls 5 BB

Flop: (14.7 BB, 2 players) 2:spade: Q:heart: J:spade:
CO checks, Hero bets 9.54 BB, CO calls 9.54 BB

Turn: (33.78 BB, 2 players) 9:club:
CO bets 18 BB, Hero weird spot here, do we jam or call and call most rivers?
 
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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 417.08 BB
UTG: 249.14 BB (VPIP: 61.04, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 1.96, Hands: 80)
MP: 316.48 BB (VPIP: 32.07, PFR: 25.74, 3Bet Preflop: 12.44, Hands: 1,903)
CO: 110.42 BB (VPIP: 22.94, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 5.85, Hands: 480)
BTN: 192.96 BB (VPIP: 40.74, PFR: 24.07, 3Bet Preflop: 2.90, Hands: 165)
SB: 198.4 BB (VPIP: 34.51, PFR: 16.40, 3Bet Preflop: 0.73, Hands: 949)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has A:diamond: K:diamond:

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 10 BB, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop: (21.7 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond: K:spade: 7:heart:
Hero bets 14 BB, BTN calls 14 BB

Turn: (49.7 BB, 2 players) 3:club:
Hero bets 32.26 BB, BTN raises to 71.5 BB, Hero calls 39.24 BB

River: (192.7 BB, 2 players) 6:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets 97.26 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 97.26 BB
 
duggs

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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 495.7 BB
UTG: 106.1 BB (VPIP: 23.01, PFR: 13.76, 3Bet Preflop: 5.85, Hands: 483)
MP: 101.7 BB (VPIP: 25.76, PFR: 19.69, 3Bet Preflop: 5.68, Hands: 1,047)
CO: 253.48 BB (VPIP: 42.93, PFR: 27.12, 3Bet Preflop: 7.90, Hands: 775)
BTN: 173.2 BB (VPIP: 24.93, PFR: 16.84, 3Bet Preflop: 6.08, Hands: 1,098)
SB: 215.7 BB (VPIP: 32.41, PFR: 15.74, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 110)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has 8:club: 9:club:

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, BTN raises to 8 BB, fold, Hero calls 7 BB, UTG calls 5 BB

Flop: (25.7 BB, 3 players) 2:heart: K:club: T:club:
Hero checks, UTG checks, BTN bets 14 BB, Hero calls 14 BB, fold

Turn: (53.7 BB, 2 players) J:spade:
Hero checks, BTN bets 30 BB, Hero raises to 219 BB, BTN calls 121 BB and is all-in

River: (355.7 BB, 2 players) 7:spade:

[spoil]Hero shows 8:club: 9:club: (Straight, Jack High) (Pre 19%, Flop 33%, Turn 30%)
BTN shows J:heart: J:club: (Three of a Kind, Jacks) (Pre 81%, Flop 67%, Turn 70%)
Hero wins 350.7 BB
[/spoil]
 
duggs

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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): 297.04 BB
BB: 167 BB (VPIP: 41.67, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.10, PFR: 19.32, 3Bet Preflop: 4.78, Hands: 992)
MP: 121.92 BB (VPIP: 21.78, PFR: 16.83, 3Bet Preflop: 11.63, Hands: 105)
CO: 318.18 BB (VPIP: 40.54, PFR: 29.73, 3Bet Preflop: 15.38, Hands: 40)
BTN: 192.54 BB (VPIP: 34.53, PFR: 16.40, 3Bet Preflop: 0.77, Hands: 882)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has 5:spade: 6:spade:

UTG raises to 3.5 BB, fold, CO raises to 11 BB, fold, Hero calls 10.5 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (27.7 BB, 2 players) 6:club: 4:spade: 3:diamond:
Hero checks, CO bets 14 BB, Hero calls 14 BB

Turn: (55.7 BB, 2 players) J:spade:
Hero checks, CO bets 30 BB, Hero calls 30 BB

River: (115.7 BB, 2 players) J:club:
Hero checks, CO bets 57 BB, Hero calls 57 BB

This was a very interesting hand, we know he has a lot of air, does that make us want to raise earlier to fold out a lot of his equity? my issue is that I'm unsure if he 3bets his over pairs as he is shaping up to be a monkey but being forced to stack turn isn't ideal, as played on river i just figured he has enough air combos to look him up
 
duggs

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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 292.86 BB (VPIP: 30.19, PFR: 16.98, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 54)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.16, PFR: 17.96, 3Bet Preflop: 4.53, Hands: 652)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 63.64, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
BTN: 274.36 BB (VPIP: 31.93, PFR: 25.57, 3Bet Preflop: 12.69, Hands: 1,716)
SB: 182.14 BB (VPIP: 29.16, PFR: 20.60, 3Bet Preflop: 7.25, Hands: 3,361)
Hero (BB): 457.18 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has T:spade: 8:spade:

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (13.7 BB, 4 players) 8:heart: A:diamond: 8:club:
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: (13.7 BB, 4 players) 2:diamond:
Hero bets 8.88 BB, fold, CO calls 8.88 BB, fold

River: (31.46 BB, 2 players) 8:diamond:
Hero bets 101 BB,
 
duggs

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as always appreciate any and all feedback,
 
magicius

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as always appreciate any and all feedback,
wait a second,this many hands take time to read :) i keep reloading page to see what guys have to say about few spots,they are quite intersting...

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
magicius

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PokerStars - $0.50 Ante $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 292.86 BB (VPIP: 30.19, PFR: 16.98, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 54)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.16, PFR: 17.96, 3Bet Preflop: 4.53, Hands: 652)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 63.64, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 11)
BTN: 274.36 BB (VPIP: 31.93, PFR: 25.57, 3Bet Preflop: 12.69, Hands: 1,716)
SB: 182.14 BB (VPIP: 29.16, PFR: 20.60, 3Bet Preflop: 7.25, Hands: 3,361)
Hero (BB): 457.18 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, 6 players post ante of 0.2 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.7 BB) Hero has T:spade: 8:spade:

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (13.7 BB, 4 players) 8:heart: A:diamond: 8:club:
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: (13.7 BB, 4 players) 2:diamond:
Hero bets 8.88 BB, fold, CO calls 8.88 BB, fold

River: (31.46 BB, 2 players) 8:diamond:
Hero bets 101 BB,
and please did this guy call in the end? what he had Ax?

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
BenjiHustle

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Only one I can comment on is QJ, because I'm a backer of pushing on shorter stacks. He's invested nearly half of his stack at this point and won't be able to get away from drawing with AT or TPT/GK; KQ is a big possibility.

I'm not saying it's the right move, or that I know shit, I'm just saying that this is how I approach a confrontation with a short stack. Almost every time I make some kind of a hand against a short stack, I get them to commit. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. The times I lose (unless they hit n run me), I generally establish in their minds that I'm the player to make their money off of. That allows me to take it back fairly easily if I have to, because they never recognize a shift in gears in time. I have been hit n run doing this, but most of the time they're behind when we gii anyway since they're so anxious (in general).

I'm really subbing this thread because information that you provide is valuable to me, though. Obviously, that leaves me in no position to be suggesting ways for you to go about playing your game. I'm here to learn and I appreciate that you're open to providing tips and all that shizz. In saying that, I'm curious about the AK hand. This is a place where I would fold, but PT4 says that I fold increasingly too often on each street. I've called here before, and it always seems to be that I'm calling 33 and never would've guessed that they turned a little set after making it beyond the flop. Not wanting to run into those situations any longer, I usually find the 'fold' button when someone reps a set with a turn x/r and river shove.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Sheesh, no one comments when I'm gone I see :p

A9s: I'm little worried that jamming the river will look super polarizing (do we raise worse than straights for value?), but we really do look like we have an 8 a lot of the time, or even some backdoor flushes that had a pair or gutter + backdoor FD on flop. Prob fine as his range isn't that strong, but depending on good of a hand-reader he is and how aggro he thinks we are I'm wary.

JJ: Guessing you had some sort of read here? Otherwise I don't get it unless you're turning your hand into a bluff, which I think is terrible. We have so many better combos we could bluff. So I assume you're value jamming. But I think his turn raise is pretty polarizing to two pair+ and air/draws. I guess he still calls off some draws? But I'm not sure how many combos he has. I guess there's an argument that we'd make mistakes on rivers, but seems we can just call and play semi-perfectly? Bleh, I'm back and forth cause idk if he's jamming air on rivers. Mixed feelings!

QJ: CO stats? Not sure if I get pre if villain is an unknown - do we assume massive fish for unknowns who are so short? Otherwise seems thin but not sure. Anyway flop is standard except just size bigger imo. Turn is weird because again no stats at all and idk what the play of the population is for people who are unknown and are in short. Like we might be so far ahead that we should always jam, or we could even be behind, depending on kind of fish. I'm probably jamming though to gii vs. combo draws or worse two pairs that make massive mistakes gii vs. us.

AK: Ugh. I mean, he reps so thin for value, so I think it's ok. Like his value combos are like 77, 66, 33 (maybe 1-2 combos), 76s, which is 7-8 combos. He doesn't need much air at all for this to be ok, so I guess it's ok. I just don't know how much air people have in this spot since it's super dry. 98s I guess? Not sure what else though.

98s: Unsure about pre. Not excited about calling OOP when UTG's tight, uncapped range is still to act behind us. Flop is standard I think, but I prefer x/c on the turn. Yeah we have more pot equity, but did we pick up any more FE? I don't really think so personally.

65s: Again not sure if this is a standard flat OOP. I know our skill edge goes up when deeper stacked, but so does positional edge. I kind of like donking turn tbh, because it will throw him off, his value hands may not raise, and if he DOES raise we're still getting the right price to continue. But I def play it the same as you a lot of the time. River is fine I think. He should have more air than value here imo. Many of his flop/turn value combos may slow down OTR.

T8: Pre is whatever, we're deep and over-calling so I'm ok with it. Flop standard, turn lol-sizing, you fool :p River is sexy. Most of his range is things that will call nothing or only small amounts (stubborn PP) or will call massive (backdoor flushes and Ax). VNH sir.
 
duggs

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A9s, thanks i thought he was a fairly poor hand reader that didn't have that many 8s but didn't have a tonne of nutty hands in his range either.

JJ, thousands of draws was why i stuck it in, but looks like a fold in hindsight.

QJ, thats my standard limp iso size. assume fish because he limped.

AK agree

98s, i think we get all hands worse than Sets to fold on turn tho, and that alone should be often enough. pre looks very optimistic.

65s, villain is a spazzy reg so I'm flatting with heaps of hands here, and don't expect many 4bets, he 3bets way to wide and continues way too much.

thanks for the feedback man
 
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played os badly today its not even funny, will post hands after dinner
 
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