Do ANY of u agree with Allsopp here??? I don`t!!!

Irexes

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2. You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose.

If I didn't know better I would think you were winding us up :)

Your case for this style of play is somewhat undermined by the lack of evidence.

Have you got any figures at all to justify this? How many bb do you make for every 100 hands?

(this doesn't include telling us that 3bb/100 is psychologically greater than 6bb/100)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Ok I can't be arsed going into great detail so here's a summary of your summary as I see it.

1. You can never be fully sure what your opponent has.
Do I get free holecard reader software when I start using your strategy then? Otherwise, how does it improve my hand-reading ability?

2. You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose.
Yes you can, rather easily. You've obviously been playing with TAGs so long you've forgotten that calling stations and suchlike exist. In fact, you place such emphasis on using your strategy on TAGs after using some metagame to turn them into calling stations, umm, why not just play calling stations in the first place?

3. When you get a badbeat it cripples you.
A bad beat is a sign that you've got your money in while ahead, and therefore a sign that over many repetitions of the same event you will make money as your actual profit from the hand approaches your expectation. So, umm, why should I be afraid of bad beats?

4. When the cards dont come, you cant really play any hands.
Playing TAG requires one to hit cards, whereas what amounts to waiting to flop 2 pair+ does not? Okay, cool.


If this is one big wind-up (I really suspected it was when reading the 'fold premium hands' bit, but the idea has gone off a little now), congratulations, (a) you got me to take it seriously, and (b) it was pretty funny.
 
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Allsopp

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Eh, thats where I leave this thread. I told you how I play and why its successful. I dont have the energy to enter this debate.

I would say good luck at the tables but some of you are just rude...
 
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Allsopp

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Ahh and just to clarify. This style of play probably wouldnt work at micro limits but I dont know as I haven't tried it there.

Upwards of 1/2 $ No limit 8-10 handed and you'll do just fine as the majority of players are very tight and like to protect their hands whilst at the same time will gladly fold if they miss wide and wont try and make plays against you bullying them.
 
Ronaldadio

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I can see Alsopps point to an extent...

What I think he is saying is if you are sitting with say AQ u r less likely to use his way because u could be up against AA, AK, KK, QQ - obviously a bad position to be in and these are the kind of hands that people are more likely to raise with??? Where this would fall down would be if the raiser was sitting with TT against your AQ - what happens then???

However, if u r sitting with say 67s I think u would actually be in better shape, all be it only slightly (in the 4 examples I have given, your AQ is massivley dominated by AA, AK, QQ - I think 67s would be in a better position?)

So, in effect, I think he means to carry out this play do not use AQ, AJ, KQ, or, I would guess, a low pp? or would Allsopp always call a raise with a low pp? I don`t know.

I still don`t agree 100%, but in the same way as limping in from early position with 22 every other hand or so, I think it could have its place - unfortunatly, not for me, I hasten to add - I aint got the balls!!!

Ronaldadio
 
withawedge

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Allsop
Its like when you play a tournament and someone raises 4 times the BB, I'll call them off in late position with pretty much anything. When a raggy board comes down they will bet the pot exactly. I mean its funny, if the pot was 643.6218942 they would bet 643.6218942. Call that bet and 9 times out of 10 they will check the turn. You bet and they fold.

If you were playing me or plenty of others, in the above scenario, you would probably be facing JJ etc etc. Assuming BB was at say 1k. Are you really saying that if I put 4k in the middle you would call with say 8, 4os.

What happens when the flop is bet and then the turn. :confused:
 
mrsnake3695

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I think some of you guys are missing allsop's point. I also think that this is advice primarily for no-limit cash ring games, not MTTs which require varying styles at different times.

He actually gives some very good advice for no limit cash games which I think should not be dismissed out of hand like some of you are doing.
 
zinzan1000

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I only spotted this thread 30 mins ago as I have been away.
It rather amazes me and at the same time fills me with joy that the majority of you appear to be against what Allsopp is saying.
Amazed because you tend to pick the bones out of tiny morsels of what he is saying and don't comment fully on his entire posts ( something that happens alot around here unfortunately ) and the fact that a lot of you view it as something new or offbeat, I'm stunned.
It fills me with joy because like you said Allsopp, if most players stick to their usual game there is more picking out there for this strategy to be successful, and I know for a fact there is nothing new about this strategy.
On a sadder note, on more than one occasion you explained fully, when,where,how,who,right time, wrong time, etc etc etc when to employ this type of play but nobody seemed to be able to remember that part.
Never mind though, I did, and like you said, if they don't want to use it, no problem.
Have a +rep on me.
 
Irexes

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I said a few times there's a kernel of truth in taking the implied odds into account when calling raises preflop (under certain circumstances).

It's the psychology of odd numbers beings higher and folding AJ, AQ, KQ, JJ to avoid trouble that I find bizarre. Yes they can get you in troube, but the answer isn't folding them.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Yeah, in essence he's taken a good point and twisted it to the realms of ridiculousness.

To compare, getting some exercise every day is a good idea, but exercising intensively for 24 hours a day probably isn't.

His little summary thing is so ridiculous it was impossible ("You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose"? lol) for me not to comment on it.
 
Ronaldadio

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A lot of the people, including me...

I only spotted this thread 30 mins ago as I have been away.
It rather amazes me and at the same time fills me with joy that the majority of you appear to be against what Allsopp is saying.
Amazed because you tend to pick the bones out of tiny morsels of what he is saying and don't comment fully on his entire posts ( something that happens alot around here unfortunately ) and the fact that a lot of you view it as something new or offbeat, I'm stunned.
It fills me with joy because like you said Allsopp, if most players stick to their usual game there is more picking out there for this strategy to be successful, and I know for a fact there is nothing new about this strategy.
On a sadder note, on more than one occasion you explained fully, when,where,how,who,right time, wrong time, etc etc etc when to employ this type of play but nobody seemed to be able to remember that part.
Never mind though, I did, and like you said, if they don't want to use it, no problem.
Have a +rep on me.

I agreed with it to an extent. The reason I posted this is because my question where Allsopp put this answer forward was initially relating to MTT. I can agree to an extent that in cash games this could be an additional weapon in the armoury!!!
 
A

Allsopp

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Thanks alot for the support guys. A common trait of poker players is stubborness I suppose its true in many forms of gambling. Although I dont consider poker gambling. A person that plays poker is normally drawn to it initially by their gambling nature.

I'll try and explain the points that keep causing some of you problems so that you can understand nothing is ridiculous about this style of play.

Folding "Premium Hands" to a raise.

In cash games I always like to ensure I have the tools nescessary to ensure I can win a pot. As a result it is important my cards are live. Players generally raise with hands like AK, KK, AA - the amounts always vary but you can be sure 75% of the time people raise with these hands. Furthermore, people nearly always raise with other premium hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, JJ, KJ, A 10, QJ etc etc etc. Therefore if I am holding one of the latter hands I will fold to almost any raise. Why? Simply because my hand could be dead or the chance of winning with it significantly reduced. I also never really know where I am in a hand if I hit top pair or even second pair. I'd much rather fold when it costs me nothing and pick a better time to play and win. Like when I can hit and be almost sure I have the best of it. I dont think any part of that sounds ridiculous. Remember, cash games aren't a race - you just have to make a profit.

Number Psychology

People are naturally tight when it comes to even numbers and loose when it comes to odd numbers. Therefore if I want someone to call a bet I will bet a number like 350. If I want a player to fold I will be a number like 420. In cash games, decimals are also psychologically stronger. Therefore I would always bet an amount like $6.20 if I wanted them to fold and $6 if I wanted them to call. Try it, it works.

And to quote Dorkus:

"His little summary thing is so ridiculous it was impossible ("You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose"? lol) for me not to comment on it."

If you cant understand this concept then you should probably give up poker. I'd say that you are either a losing poker player or dont make very much from it with an attitude like this.

See the concept is simple. Suppose you get dealt pocket A's, the strongest starting hand in poker! But you dont improve your hand [which if you want to play by the odds, is a big favourite to happen] - then quite simply. All you have at the end of the hand is a pair of aces. Pretty weak, but yet people love to push everything in with them. I see people go broke so often with just a pair of aces, its ridiculous. If your an exception to this then please dont criticise me for stating the fact that most people will go broke with pocket aces. Now if you raise with them, people generally call raises with a premium ace hand. Since your holding 2 of them - the chances of somebody else having any is significantly reduced, so its less likely you'll have anyone dominated.

Other hands that might call you? Well, middle pocket pairs are a big one. People find them easy to lay down and again if they hit a set - aces go broke again...

Then we have almost every other hand possible in poker - if it hits two pair or any other hand in the poker table apart from "one pair" or "high card" then again your aces are bust.

Same goes for pocket Kings and Queens.

So really its quite simple, your very unlikely to win as much with big pocket pairs as you are with say for example 78 suited. Simply because, if the majority of players dont hit with them they can easily fold. Whereas if they do hit with them, they can bust the chump with aces, kings or queens on a 10 high board when they turn a straight!

I dont think any concept there is that ridiculous! Like I say, I hope you guys dont take my advice. The less players that play like this online the better. It'd make my life a hell of alot harder at the tables!

Remember guys, you dont have to win all the chips at the table. You just have to make a profit. So no matter how good that hand looks, always ask yourself if its really worth it and be prepared to let it go. Even when your Ebay Ebook tells you not too!

Good luck guys! Espiecially snake and zinzan! Although judging by their responses I doubt they need it!
 
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blankoblanco

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Still interested in how much you make using this strategy, I didn't see an answer (I apologize if you answered, but I didn't find it)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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And to quote Dorkus:
"His little summary thing is so ridiculous it was impossible ("You can never win as much with a big hand as you can lose"? lol) for me not to comment on it."

If you cant understand this concept then you should probably give up poker. I'd say that you are either a losing poker player or dont make very much from it with an attitude like this.

Strangely AA is showing a profit for me on PT, so I am, bizarrely enough winning more than I am losing with the biggest of big hands, contrary to your statement. I'm showing a profit with KK, QQ, and AK too.

Even if you're talking about a single hand in a vacuum, the most you can lose or win in a (HU) hand is your stack, assuming your opponent has you outchipped, so you're still wrong.

You concentrate so much on certain specific scenarios, and ignore so many others that your logic is completely flawed. What about the times when villain will hit TP and go busto to my overpair? What about times when rags will flop and villain will go busto on overpair vs higher overpair?
What about the times when complete donks will go busto chasing gutshots against me? There is a time and a place for playing implied odds, and it's generally when you can get cheaply into a multi-way pot, or when you are very deepstacked and can put villain almost exclusively on one or two specific hands preflop, not when you're confronted with a sole raise and folds.

Anyway, am I winning more than I am losing with big hands because online poker is rigged and I am one of the chosen ones or something? Please revert.
 
mattisme

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Hi, your right about having to know the odds. If you try to chase everything using this style of play you'll just go broke quickly.

As for how many flops I see, well I see quite alot but only because I limp from late position alot. I wont feel the need to jump into raised pots with "premium" hands unless they are something special and as a result can afford to see more flops.

I usually bet about 2/3 the pot to pick it up. This convasses a pot steal and also throws the opponent off. I also bet even numbers because even numbers are psychologically higher than uneven. For example if a pot is $7, I would be $6.20 as opposed to $5.30
dont have time to read this whole thread now but got up to this and betting $6.20 isnt psychologically higher then $5.30 its just higher maybe u mean people may see better $4.80 as higher then $5.30 if there thinking about it quick idk
 
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Dorkus you will win cash with premium hands like AA, KK and AK. But you'll also go bust with them more and you also wont win as much as with for example suited connectors because people are less likely to successfully contest a pair. Surely you can understand that?

Tight aggressive poker of course works but only when its played right at the correct levels. It very rarely is, purely because many players dont pay attention to situations and think that its impossible for the odds to defy themself.

As for how much you make. How can anyone give a figure in poker? I might win nothing this month and takedown a huge tournament for $250000 next month!

All I'll say is, I earn a living from the game playing 2/4 No Limit and 10/20 Limit.

However the majority of my earnings come from regularly cashing in good value MTT's with high buy in's as this usually equates to a small field!

Good luck!
 
Jack Daniels

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Number Psychology

People are naturally tight when it comes to even numbers and loose when it comes to odd numbers. Therefore if I want someone to call a bet I will bet a number like 350. If I want a player to fold I will be a number like 420.
Just for clarity, it should be noted that 350 and 420 are both even numbers.
 
zinzan1000

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Shame on you JD,:rolleyes: you are just touting for another response.:D
 
Ronaldadio

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I`ve caused a real stink here???

I get the feeling everyone is talking about different things. And like most things in life, its all about opinions? If it works for you why fix it?

I could not play the way Allsopp does as I do not play cash games and I like to play a tight game, although I can change gears when I feel the time is right.

I play mainly S&G`s and MTT. I don`t like turbo`s, prefer S&G`s with 10 players and have just increased my buyins to about $30 - $50 S&G and $20 - $60 MTT (I would count a $20 rebuy as $60) I also have tried to get into the bigger buy in tournys via satt`s.

I struggle to understand, Allsopp, how you can say "As for how much you make. How can anyone give a figure in poker? I might win nothing this month and takedown a huge tournament for $250000 next month!"

To keep track of how much I win or lose I have a spreadsheet on my PC with 4 sheets open. One monitors my MTT, one Cash, one S&G`s - the last totals them all up. This is how the totals page looks so far...

................................August............September.............October.............November
OverallStakes .........$2,145.00...........$1,161.10 .............$1,616.40 ...........$595.00
Winnings ................$2,312.27...........$1,753.35.............. $1,194.91 ...........$600.00
Profit/ loss ..................$60.17 .............$637.69 ...............($421.49) ..............$5.00

I only started this in August. Behind this I know what effects my profit/ Loss.
So in August I went mad towards the end of the month when I was $998 in profit - I tried to push too high in stakes (Out of my depth in £100 MTT - that was before I read the Sklansky books!!!)
September - I started up a new business but won a $10 MTT $535.
October - Stakes too high again in MTT
So far, November Lost $210 on MTT won $215 on S&G !!!

I know there are other trackers out there but this is how I keep track.

It might just be my background in business that makes me monitor profit and loss - I`ll be setting myself targets soon!!! )
Again, check out www.eureca.uk.com ;) )
 
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Jack Daniels

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It might just be my background in business that makes me monitor profit and loss - I`ll be setting myself targets soon!!! )

I have similar spreadsheets for tracking all of my results. Yep, multiple pages and various purposes, but every penny is there and accountable and when. Records keeping is a must if you're going to be honest with yourself about how you're really doing.

I helped a buddy out with this, to prove my point to him. He didn't believe it really mattered as he said he was a winning player overall. Well I got him to agree to an experiment with me. He would play like normal and not track anything. However, after he played a SNG (which is all he played), he would send me an e-mail with the buy-in, entrants, final placing, cashout, etc. I dropped it all into a simple spreadsheet with some basic calculations. At the end of the month, he thought he did pretty good and was up maybe like $100-$125 or so he thought. I showed him the spreadsheet which showed him as just barely positive (something like + $5-10). But a far cry from where he thought he was. He did say he took more notice of the number of tournies he played since he had to honestly e-mail me each time he played. Now he swears by keeping records.
 
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Allsopp

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Knowing where you are in poker is real important. I dont keep records on actual sessions profit/loss [only records I keep are player notes] but I do monitor my money closely.

My system is, everytime I go $400 above my bankroll in a site [1 maximum buyin at my preferred level] I withdraw it to neteller. Then I let it accumalate in neteller until it reaches $4000, then I deposit it into a site where I dont have a bankroll. However along the way when I need cash I will withdraw from Neteller using my Neteller card.

Its not as detailed as keeping actual records on sessions, but I generally know where I am. If I dont make as much as I think I do in a month I soon find out because bills dont get paid and I go hungry. :D

I used to use Poker Office which automatically records data and displays them in tabular form like you guys have. Only problem is, its a big leech on RAM and meant my poker client would occasionally crash so it had to go!
 
Bombjack

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If you're doing it professionaly it would be a good idea to invest in some decent hardware! Maybe a rig with 5 flat screens wrapping round your desk. It'd probably pay for itself. Certainly Poker Tracker is one of those products that will pay for itself.
 
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Hey Bombjack.

My computer is pretty good but for some reason I get system lag when using Poker Office on pacific poker and that sometimes leads the client to crash. Its no big problem as I dont play there that often - I only go there every now and again because its very easy to cash in their high stakes SnG's but for that reason I dont use Poker Office at all.

I only play on one table at anyone time though so no more than one monitor is needed :D
 
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I think if somebody is raising the bb 6 times you only can call if you have a good position. (AA, AK, KQ, etc). But what allsopp is saying about the odds is true.

I agree that poker is more about people and the way they act. During a game you can see how play the game. Most players on the internet don't know nothing about odds!!
 
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