Confused about turn situation

Gohaku94

Gohaku94

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Hello,I often find myself in a hard situation on turn, at least hard for me. I am ip with a strong flush draw and the opponent donks the flop, i call, but the bet on river is always bigger and harder to handle. I feel like these situations should be easier since i have betting lead, position and a big draw, should just raise the flop or just give up?:frown: Example bellow.


888 Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4


Hero (BTN): 100 BB
SB: 110 BB (VPIP: 20.89, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 1.32, hands: 229)
BB: 150.5 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 40.00, Hands: 11)
UTG: 105.5 BB (VPIP: 32.89, PFR: 19.73, 3Bet Preflop: 8.89, Hands: 151)
UTG+1: 99 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
MP: 137.5 BB (VPIP: 27.91, PFR: 17.44, 3Bet Preflop: 3.45, Hands: 88)
MP+1: 170.5 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
CO: 112 BB (VPIP: 32.35, PFR: 26.47, 3Bet Preflop: 20.00, Hands: 34)


SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB


Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:club: A:club:


fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 1 BB, fold, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, BB calls 4 BB, fold


Flop: (11.5 BB, 2 players) 4:club: 9:club: T:spade:
BB bets 5.5 BB, Hero calls 5.5 BB


Turn: (22.5 BB, 2 players) 5:heart:
BB bets 11 BB, fold


BB wins 21.5 BB
 
MrTopper

MrTopper

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Total posts
3
Chips
0
I hate the donk; it blows my world up. I'm not the best so take this with a grain of salt.

What I've noticed playing at the micros is that a donk is generally representing strength. Of course, that's not always the case but that's my general read on the population. With that being said, I think 2 courses of action are acceptable.1.) Exactly what you did. Peel once and hope for a pair, straight draw opportunity or the obvious nuts.
2.) Re-raise the donk, continue aggression if they call and be ready to ship it with ace high.


My personal issue with option 2 is that, again, the read on the population is that a donk is strength and I've never ran into an opponent that is telling me, or anyone at the table, that they are weak. That's not to say that I will never run into that situation but as of now, it has yet to happen. Also, another read on the population is that they always think you are bluffing. It's difficult for the re-raise to accomplish the fold in this situation, at least in my opinion. I understand that you can realize a ton of equity when they make the call against your re-raise here, so a fold isn't required to make this a reasonable decision, IMO. You can also get stuck in the absolutely ridiculous spot of when you re-raise the flop, they call and donk the turn.


Option 1 also has the issue of the villain making two pair if they are playing a reasonable range. I would personally play that as decent hand but nothing to get all in with. But that's going down the rabbit hole unnecessarily and kinda unrelated to what you're asking.


I'm curious to see what a better player says about this spot.
 
This Fish Chums

This Fish Chums

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Total posts
822
Chips
0
I wouldn't call myself a better player by any means, but if it were me I would not re-raise in that situation, the Villain could easily have a pocket pair to outmatch you. Since you have two premium overcards AND a nut flush draw I probably would have continued with a call though. There's a good chance if they didn't have you beat they would have checked the river and you could see a showdown.
 
wildyetty

wildyetty

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Total posts
1,598
Chips
0
if your not hitting top or second pair with the flush draw, its an easy fold
 
Gohaku94

Gohaku94

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Total posts
606
Chips
0
if your not hitting top or second pair with the flush draw, its an easy fold
You mean easy fold on turn right? I mean i don't think i could ever fold to a flop bet with that much equity. He might donk the flop and check turn and i can see both turn and river for just one bet which would be awesome.
 
quick

quick

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Total posts
1,348
Awards
1
Chips
67
You mean easy fold on turn right? I mean i don't think i could ever fold to a flop bet with that much equity. He might donk the flop and check turn and i can see both turn and river for just one bet which would be awesome.

This is often a tricky spot because we're looking for the nut flush to complete and we also know sometimes if an A or Q comes we're also ahead.


I'd consider calling the turn bet, if our flush completes on an unpaired board and villain had a set or two pair we're probably getting a nice river bet in there. Some players will raise their weaker flush draws as well to build pots. Now if the board pairs on river and we've made the flush and villain makes a value bet we can just call and if they got a boat NH and if not then we win a nice sized pot.


Some people will advocate for shoving the turn with our hand here because we could be ahead if the river brings an A, Q, or flush. Then again since villain didn't re-raise us pre flop, it means they could have a set, or a donk A9 or Q9 which makes two pair to our TPTK if a Q or A falls. It's going to be situation dependent here; if villain is showing down overpairs like JJ here or junk like J9 here we should really consider seeing the river.


All this aside I think as played and being unsure of what villain is doing we can call the turn bet and reassess on river.
 
Lorpugo

Lorpugo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
495
Chips
0
here it is on the turn the pot is 22 bb and he bets 11 so you need 11 to win 32 bb. you have nine outs clubs plus 6 outs 3 queens and 3 aces or 15 outs. by the rule 4-2. since you are on the turn multiply 15 by two you have 30 percent chance to win the hand and the pot odds are 25 percents. so folding here is a mistake. its a call. gl
 
Gohaku94

Gohaku94

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Total posts
606
Chips
0
Wrong math/thinking

here it is on the turn the pot is 22 bb and he bets 11 so you need 11 to win 32 bb. you have nine outs clubs plus 6 outs 3 queens and 3 aces or 15 outs. by the rule 4-2. since you are on the turn multiply 15 by two you have 30 percent chance to win the hand and the pot odds are 25 percents. so folding here is a mistake. its a call. gl

Hello, thank you for your answer.
That's true that if we have full outs the percentage is about 30%. If that is true so Aces and Queens works for me too that's means that I would get anymore value almost never on the river. So why would I call just for that. If Aces and Queens are not good I only have 9 outs so i have way under 25%.
In both cases call is bad in my opinion, his is after thinking more about the hand math and future actions.
 
Lorpugo

Lorpugo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
495
Chips
0
here is some more info about this situation: on the flop you have about 30 percent equity. if your stak is 100 bb and the pot is 30 bb then reraise allin. If you have more bb then call is correct. because you dont want to get reraised and put 200 bb with 30/70 for the villain. so flop play is a call. On the turn. He offers you 3/1 which means there is a possibility that he may also be on a flush draw. you could fold here and villain could have no pair two smaller clubs, you may be ahead. If he had made hand and is a good player will bet 2/3 or pot size on the turn. So you have to call. If the river is ace or queen and he is on flush draw he may decide to donk bluff and you call. If flush hits and he is on a draw you stack him. If he gets scared from river flush or a or q you still get the equity in the pot - you put 1/3 to get it with 30 percent chance and thats good. You can not be scared from set here it is possible but if you always fold on this situations from which one are you going to win?
 
Lorpugo

Lorpugo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
495
Chips
0
one mistake on flop you have 15 outs that makes 60 percent equity so if you think he has no set // from preflop play. and you like to gamble you can reraise allin
 
Gohaku94

Gohaku94

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2018
Total posts
606
Chips
0
one mistake on flop you have 15 outs that makes 60 percent equity so if you think he has no set // from preflop play. and you like to gamble you can reraise allin
That's not how this works at all.. i would have 60% to hit a flush or a Q or A.. You have to calculate % of winning WHEN getting called.
So If i shove and he calls, does he call me with those smaller flush draws You are talking about or just betting with them.. and If i only get called by 2-pair+ i don't think that's a good overshove there If the pot is 11bb in flop
 
Last edited:
Lorpugo

Lorpugo

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2017
Total posts
495
Chips
0
ok i agree allin is not an option as you are deep stacks.so call is best on flop and still think call the turn and reevaluate river. Here combos come t play. he rare will have ten nine, can have queen jack but you block queen. So i put him on flush draw or second pair.
 
IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 25, 2018
Total posts
128
Awards
1
Chips
0
I would be calling that turn bet with the nut flush draw, chance of top pair... so many outs left and good pot odds.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
No reads on opponent we fold. Theres a better spot.

We know our opponent is weak tight id raise turn and jam all rivers...


If opponents a tag id call or fold depending on how wide he is.


Check to the river we can bluff at it and hope any bricks stop him... but id guess he has some sort of pocket pair and id be thinking how much value i can make if we hit... or how much he can fold... whether its worth while is those 2 questions
 
blueskies

blueskies

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Total posts
3,643
Awards
9
Chips
304
With position I would call that. A guy like that isn't a nit.
 
CRStals

CRStals

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Total posts
7,221
Awards
21
Chips
951
Looking at this hand...- Based on our HUD there isn't enough history to use the numbers as 11 hands isn't a big enough sample
- They called a 5BB raise OOP from the BB
- They donked 1/2 pot on a ten high board with two clubs
- They donked 1/2 pot again on a brick turn


I'd argue that both your hole cards are good as the range I have them on is mostly suited connectors with clubs (although we block that holding two clubs) and I feel they are holding hands like T8, T9, JT, QT, etc. And the donk is small enough to allow you to continue, big enough to not look like a mistake.


I don't like the shove in these cases as at micro stakes it's often a semi-bluff looking to avoid drawing. I'm betting they have put you on overcards and so long as nothing over a T hits, they are going to keep betting regardless if they have a pair or not.


Folding feels wrong - two overcards, nut flush draw, and there's a chance you are ahead as is, I can't make an argument for folding. Your odds are good, you hand has strength, but I don't think raising is right. We don't want a huge pot to then brick the river and be stuck making a fold on a big pot, or a hero call because you have AQ.


So, if folding and raising aren't feeling right, the call does.
 
NeverWin

NeverWin

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 21, 2016
Total posts
19
Chips
0
I think it would have been a good move to raise him on the flop. He probably would have folded right away! If he doesn't fold you still have lots of ways to improve your hand. If he re raises you on the flop consider folding or just calling to see the turn. The flop raise will give you a good chance of taking the pot right there, but if he chooses to just call your raise or he chooses to reraise you have gained some more information about his hand that you could potentially use against him on later streets!
 
Bozovicdj

Bozovicdj

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 13, 2017
Total posts
1,501
Awards
15
Chips
0
Well in this particular spot, where you have 2 over cards to the board, it is a call on the turn imo.Also, on the flop, consider re-raising. It gives you more money in case you catch a flush. Also, if you get called, you might bluff represent some good hands, depending on the turn card, in other case, you opponent just folds to your agression and you take the money. In case you get shoved there on the flop, it would be fine to just fold it rather then gamble and hope to hit the flush.
 
sergiohardt

sergiohardt

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 3, 2018
Total posts
97
Chips
0
depending on your hand, if the opponent raises or bets, it's better not to see the turn
 
G

GWU73

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Total posts
785
Chips
0
Raise flop 100%.
2 overs and not flush draw, I'm usually willing to stack off on the flip.

Once you surrender control of the pot you have lost.
 
IcyNicy

IcyNicy

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Total posts
76
Chips
0
I don't think that reraising the donk is a good idea. Cause in that case you might be facing allin and that will put the end of your game for sure. Instead of that I think calling the turn is a good move to do. Why mot? The chances are still good. You have a potential nuts and the opponent will pay you off for sure. So I advise you to call in these situation and see the river card. And then make the desicion. But if you don't get your flush that's ok to fold without any regrets
 
Top