Cards pulled from muck to take pot

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charliej

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Just got home from the casino playing $1-2 NLHE and thought I'd share something for reaction. At heads up showdown, Player A showed his king high flush, the apparent winner. Player B tossed his cards face down over the line. Then before the dealer could award the chips, Player B says "does a full house beat a flush? I had a full house." So the floor was called and Player B said what he had. The floor man turned over the cards revealing the boat and awarded Player B the pot. The table went nuts, especially Player A, who picked up his chips and angrily left. The explanation? "That's how we do it here." The decision didn't sit well with anyone at the table.
 
ChickenArise

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I dunno as I wasnt there but as long as player B's cards did not touch any other cards in the muck and the player never said FOLD, I agree with the floor's decision.
 
acemenow

acemenow

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Interesting I learned something new. I had to look this up as I thought for sure they were doing something different as I always assumed mucked hands were simply dead ...

but here is what I found at https://www.wsop.com/poker-games/texas-holdem/rules/



"..If a player chooses to muck their cards, the hand is automatically declared dead. The exception to this rule is if a player chose to muck their hand following incorrect information, and the hand is identifiable without question in the pile. This is a discretionary rule, decided by the house..."


I am not sure that this rule truly fits the scenario you depicted but was the closest I could find.
 
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fundiver199

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The main lesson of this is, just show your cards and let the dealer determine the winner. As for the ruling, I dont know, if it was technically correct, but I think, the anger was a little out of place. It seem like an honest mistake by the player, who tossed his cards, and there was no question, that these really were his cards. If you are a professional player, you should give the amateur some rope and just suck it up. I dont think, someone would intentionally do this as a slowroll.
 
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EarnDAStack

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I think this is incredibly simple. B didn’t know the rules of the game, he mucked his cards ending the hand, player A wins his chips.

It’s a tough game, you don’t need the house making it any harder, I’d find a new casino
 
grumblbrumbl

grumblbrumbl

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This is poker. Sometimes weak players can not cope with their emotions
 
LevySystem

LevySystem

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Depends of the rules were you are playing. But usually a mucked hand is a mucked hand. So if the action took place, whatever it is call/raise/fold you cant just change it afterwards...

Im a bit surprised about the floorman.
 
smallfrie

smallfrie

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Better hand wrongly mucked but still clearly identifiable is winner. Good ruling! No need for anyone to be upset or no reason for this reaction---->"The table went nuts."
[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]
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[FONT=NotoSans, Lato, arial, sans-serif]If the floor ruled anything other than the way they did then it would have been a bad ruling. General rule---> players at 1-2 tables have no clue what they are talking about. Examples: 1.Guy does not realize Full House beats Flush. 2.Adverse reaction to easy, correct ruling on awarding winnings to best hand that was still clearly identifiable.
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zinzir

zinzir

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In my opinion, to be fair to everyone, the whole hand should have been declared dead, and all involved should have got their money back. None of the two "winners" deserved that pot, the one with the flush because he didn't have the best hand, and the one with the full house because he threw his hand in the muck.
 
SPANKYSN

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Player B is an idiot. Period.


That's a little harsh. In all the excitement and bustle in a poker room, it is not unusual to occasionally have what I would call a moment of unfocus (for me, a senior moment). It happens...but I was under the impression that once the cards were put in face down over the line, the hand was dead. Rulings quoted seem to allow each poker room their own latitude.
 
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xy23

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I would be pissed off too. It's a mucked hand. Would feel like I got slow rolled in the shittiest way possible
 
diego farfan

diego farfan

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the decisions that one makes determines his level of confidence at the table as your explanation the player who threw the cards had no confidence in the strength of his hands at all that happens to us at some point in life in the game it is advisable to have a little confidence when playing each hand
 
Mortis71

Mortis71

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Have any of you threw away a 3 of a kind plus a pair (AAAKK) to all suited cards? I would table that fullhouse like its the nutz...even if I'm beat.
 
Poker_Mike

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Just got home from the casino playing $1-2 NLHE and thought I'd share something for reaction. At heads up showdown, Player A showed his king high flush, the apparent winner. Player B tossed his cards face down over the line. Then before the dealer could award the chips, Player B says "does a full house beat a flush? I had a full house." So the floor was called and Player B said what he had. The floor man turned over the cards revealing the boat and awarded Player B the pot. The table went nuts, especially Player A, who picked up his chips and angrily left. The explanation? "That's how we do it here." The decision didn't sit well with anyone at the table.


The way you describe it - it sounds legit to me. Cards aren't actually mucked until they touch the muck - yes just touch the muck pile. But his cards were face down on the table and not actually in the muck.

But even after being technically mucked there are special circumstances when they have been "unmucked".

I lose a hand on a Sunday morning and as I toss the dealer my cards face down I say, "I can't believe that guy cracked my aces."

Player next to me says, "Did you really have aces? Because they are paying $100 for an Aces Cracked promotion."

The dealer confirms and calls the floor and she identifies my two cards just sticking out of the muck pile. The floor allows her to carefully slide them out of the muck and they pay me the $100. This helped the sting some of losing the hand.

Everything is relative in a poker room. Usually the management want to be fair - whatever that actually means that day by that floor person's interpretation!

Good luck !
 
57noona

57noona

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I dunno as I wasnt there but as long as player B's cards did not touch any other cards in the muck and the player never said FOLD, I agree with the floor's decision.


I would have to agree with this post. If the cards didn't hit the mucked cards then I guess the hand is still live? I can't believe that a player playing in a Casino didn't know that a Full House beat a flush? He must have been new to the game then.
 
TheDude6622

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Just got home from the casino playing $1-2 NLHE and thought I'd share something for reaction. At heads up showdown, Player A showed his king high flush, the apparent winner. Player B tossed his cards face down over the line. Then before the dealer could award the chips, Player B says "does a full house beat a flush? I had a full house." So the floor was called and Player B said what he had. The floor man turned over the cards revealing the boat and awarded Player B the pot. The table went nuts, especially Player A, who picked up his chips and angrily left. The explanation? "That's how we do it here." The decision didn't sit well with anyone at the table.

In the casinos I play at, as long as you can pull the cards from the muck, then yes they can be retrieved and flipped over to scoop the pot.
 
rj_montana

rj_montana

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My initial reaction when reading this thread was a fold is a fold. After some reflection, I find myself in agreement with the majority of posters.

By showdown, it seems to me that the only potential for mischief is for Player A or B to misrepresent their hand in the hopes of inducing their opponent to muck a stronger hand, leaving them with the only live hand to scoop the pot. For example, Player A or B holding a heart and a diamond on a board with three hearts could flip over their hand and announce flush, in the hopes of having the opponent's cards irretrievably hit the muck before the misrepresentation could be sorted out.

Is anyone aware of any relevant rules, and more interestingly, of anyone who has attempted this in a televised game?
 
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charliej

Rock Star
This was Player Bs second hand of the session. You could tell immediately that the guy was new to a casino poker room. He was pretty flustered. Or perhaps it was an act?

I also thought at the time that a muck is a muck but now I know different. Kudos to the staff at the Rivers in schenectady ny. It’s not big but it’s a tight run shop.
 
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Rocko814

Rising Star
As long as they dont touch the muck pile they're technically per.itted to be retrieved and played. As soon as the dealer puts them in the actual pile of folded hands/burnt cards, they are no longer eligible to play.

Look, theres rules and there's ettiquite.
If the jagoff was uncertain he should flip em on a showdown to verify his hand. End of story.
 
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fundiver199

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Look, theres rules and there's ettiquite.


Dont think anyway will argue, that you should do this as a slowroll. But if it was an honest mistakes, which it sounds like, then no need for other players to get angry about it. He had the best hand and won the pot, as he should, end of story :)
 
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