Big Hands hitting nothing - some help?

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
i have a problem with big hands
when im in a tourney and raise real big with them, and get a caller, if the flop brings nothing but rags, i don't know what to do
i've tried betting strong to represent pockets,
I've tried just pushing all in thinking my AK will beat their AQ or AJ and to make them make a decision
either way i end up getting called and the guy has caught his rag and takes all my chips
EX: i raise AK preflop to about 3 or 4XBB and get 1 caller
flop comes something like 943 rainbow and desperate for chips i push
he turns over J9 after his call
i realize this is a terrible call on my PFR but it is a freeroll after all
even when they call with better hands they always manage to catch a miracle card
so my question is this:
what kind of bets do you put out after a big PFR on something like AK and hit nothing on the flop?
should I not be putting as much value as I do on AK?
lately i've decided if I'm anywhere close to short stacked, I'll just push to get a good showdown or most of the time just to steal blinds and antes
 
R

royalflush525

Enthusiast
I'll tell u i think that once u play for a while u get a feeling, i don't know if i could explain what i'm talking about but i've lost on pocket a,s its just what will happen some call it luck, and some call it intution all i know is i'm getting better at it. my advise is take the betting easy at first, get to know ur game and ur apponents, than things should work out for u. love,live,laugh and play poker.
 
buckster436

buckster436

Cardschat Hall of Famer - RIP Buck
Awards
2
getting big hands before the flop and raising is ok, and if nothing comes on the flop you have to keep firing at the pot, sometime you have to fire twice before a player will fold, its a risk you have to take now and then,ive won many pots with nothing doing that, but if the other player raises you then get out quick>>>>> buckster436
 
XXIII

XXIII

Rock Star
In tournament play I if AA AK and KK I always preflop raise 20% of my stack. Unless you got dumbasses they fold unless they have a decent hand. If it flops 698 then shoot another 20%. If they still stay in then you either got someone with a solid hand or a moron.If you seen the person play a few hand you can tell what they have. If they are in everyhand they could be playing crap like a 69 or anything. But if they are kinda tight it will be easier to keep calling. If you make it after the flop with another big bet and they call just check the river if ya hit nothing. If they bet big just throw it away
 
K

Kanufi

Guest
XXIII said:
In tournament play I if AA AK and KK I always preflop raise 20% of my stack. Unless you got dumbasses they fold unless they have a decent hand. If it flops 698 then shoot another 20%. If they still stay in then you either got someone with a solid hand or a moron.
Always betting 20% of your stack size does not seem to be a good idea for several reasons:
1. It makes you predictable
2. It could be a huge raise comared to BB, completly overbetting the pot. Like tourney just started blinds 5/10 everyone still got 1500 chips. Now your bet would be 30 times the BB = 300. This way you just win a small pot. But it sounds like you want everyone out preflop.

ChuckTs idea of betting 4 times BB seems better to me. After the flop make up your mind if you play this hand and try to bluff them out if you hit nothing or if you get the feeling you are beat, let it go. The latter being one of the most difficult decision of all.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
You've got to be careful if you've been slow playing big hands that have hit earlier in game. Pushing betting would imply (to me) that you didn't have anything, so might tempt someone to call.
 
XXIII

XXIII

Rock Star
Kanufi said:
Always betting 20% of your stack size does not seem to be a good idea for several reasons:
1. It makes you predictable
2. It could be a huge raise comared to BB, completly overbetting the pot. Like tourney just started blinds 5/10 everyone still got 1500 chips. Now your bet would be 30 times the BB = 300. This way you just win a small pot. But it sounds like you want everyone out preflop.

ChuckTs idea of betting 4 times BB seems better to me. After the flop make up your mind if you play this hand and try to bluff them out if you hit nothing or if you get the feeling you are beat, let it go. The latter being one of the most difficult decision of all.
1. I am consistent. I bet the same amount so people know I have a good hand. Works perfectly when I bluff too.
2. Betting 200-300 with a good hand will get rid of all the jokers who want to see if they can hit the flop. Not many want to lose 200+ chips with a 7 5 off suit. If I just get the blinds thats fine. Better then losing on the river to a bunch of lucky rags.

And you think 40 chips is enough to scare off rags? I tried that and got burned each time.
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

A Member
The question I would ask here is whether this is at a freeroll or for real money. In a freeroll there is no way to force folks out - they just call, bust out, and enter the next freeroll. In a real money game, folks will make much better decisions as their own money is at risk. In my view (except in SNG tourney play) a big pre-flop raise is risky. There is as good a chance of 7-7-2 flopping as the is of A-K-Q so the best pre-flop hand is just that - the best pre-flop hand. There are 5 more cards coming and they can turn that 7-2 offsuit into the best hand...
 
gjshand

gjshand

Rock Star
It all depends on how the table is playing and wheather or not your in tune with it, as a general rule ( really general, it'll change depending on position, my chips, any callers chips, the flop, if its raining...... you get the idea! ) i would generally try the following:

If i were to flop say AK suited, i like that hand so i'll bet 3 times the BB, it folded round to me in mid position, say i get one caller and i'm to act first then the flop brings 943 rainbow. I would probably bet 4 BB ( a little more than the raise i made ) this says " i have something" or at least it should!

The next bits too hard to put down exactly, you need to interpret the callers action, fold, call or raise ( easiest being a fold obviously). Then use that along with your table knowledge to decide what comes next.

e.g. the guy that calls has been really loose all game, its a small stakes re-buy tourney and he had been happy to buy-in a couple of times already. i'd then be inclined to see the turn, you know if you push all-in he'll probably call ( doesn't matter if he has to re-buy again, not to him anyway ), then pray you hit. If the next card pairs you up, then go all-in, if not bet or check. Everyone plays their own game, you'll find yours.

The biggest lesson i have learnt is that you are allowed to fold in poker, regardless on how great your hole cards are, the guy on the BB who checks with 83 offsuit is KING when the flop comes 883!

I've been playing a while and i still get done, "takes a minute to learn and a lifetime to master".

Good luck
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
Freeroll is the operative word. You aren't chasing those callers off if you had a pistol. These callers are going to constantly suck out on you because if they lose, what have they lost?
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

Guest
XXIII said:
1. I am consistent. I bet the same amount so people know I have a good hand. Works perfectly when I bluff too.
2. Betting 200-300 with a good hand will get rid of all the jokers who want to see if they can hit the flop. Not many want to lose 200+ chips with a 7 5 off suit. If I just get the blinds thats fine. Better then losing on the river to a bunch of lucky rags.

And you think 40 chips is enough to scare off rags? I tried that and got burned each time.
You really cant just say that you will raise 20% of your stack. What if you're late in a tournament and are very short stacked? The blinds will be more than what you say you will raise. What if you are chip leader? Then you are betting WAY too much if you actually have a good hand. You should always base your bets on your current position and how high the big blind is. Basing it on a % of your chips is not smart... unless its 0% or 100% ;)
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
ChuckTs said:
so my question is this:
what kind of bets do you put out after a big PFR on something like AK and hit nothing on the flop?
should I not be putting as much value as I do on AK?
lately i've decided if I'm anywhere close to short stacked, I'll just push to get a good showdown or most of the time just to steal blinds and antes
Well if you're short stacked and the blinds are big, of course you push AK. :p

The standard post-flop move would be a continuation bet of around 50% of the pot, folding to any re-raise and treading very carefully if you're flat-called (maybe bet the turn if the flop was draw-heavy and the turn doesn't help the draw(s), depending on what you know about your opponent).

In a free game though, it's probably best to check-fold the flop and bet the turn regardless of what it is if the other player checks, as people will call bets on the flop with almost anything, and obviously folding to a check-raise (people in free games and at low limits either tend to slow-play most good hands they have or just push with them).
 
MicheleW

MicheleW

Rock Star
It depends on who you are playing with. If its a freeroll - those maniacs think you are bluffing betting out big like that - they have no clue you are telling them you have a big hand. Then they call you and your story plays out.

If you are playing experienced players, you may have one/two caller/s with as good a hand as you. Then you can bet accordingly and have a better chance at winning the pot before its totally played out.
 
Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

Rock Star
diabloblanco said:
Freeroll is the operative word. You aren't chasing those callers off if you had a pistol. These callers are going to constantly suck out on you because if they lose, what have they lost?
I agree, the key is the context of where are you playing.
For real money i like to represent the flop
In my thread i said basically to represent the flop with medium hands, but sometimes also works with those great hands that doesn´t hit. Remember that the key is not to bet so much because if yo do you can loose a lot but also don´t bet too little to avoid giving the necessary pot odds to your opponent to call with a draw or a low pair (that anyway it beats you).
 
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V

viking999

Visionary
I think your biggest problem there is pushing all-in. If you actually are that desperate for chips, you should have gone all-in preflop with that good of a pocket. If you aren't then there's no need to go all-in. I'd just place a moderately sized bet (50% of pot is good) and wait to see what happens. If he folds, you're good. If he raises, I'd fold (unless your past observations tell you that this is probably a bluff). If he calls, I'd check on the turn. If he also checks, repeat this on the river (you could bet on the river, but you could be playing into the hands of a slow play). If he bets something significant, fold if the turn didn't help you or reraise if you paired up on the turn. If he calls the reraise, he probably has something (maybe the same pair you got, but worse kicker). If he raises over the top of the reraise (possibly all-in) then I'd suspect 2 pair or better. This is just what I'd do, and is by no means the "right answer" (in fact some people will probably find this method appalling, but hey, that's poker :biggrin: ).
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Yeah, that's another problem, pushing after a flop that doesn't hit your AK is silly as you're not getting all your money in when your hand is at it's optimum - like viking said if you're gonna push regardless of the flop, you may as well push pre-flop and not give your opponent a chance to catch anything.
 
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IrishDave

IrishDave

A Member
Back to my basic premise: If it's a freeroll it DOES NOT matter whether you raise pre or post flop - folks will call regardless. I don't play freerolls, but for this reason I don't think I'd ever raise pre-flop. At least post flop I have seen where my hand is going and can make a better decision.

Remember that pocket aces are just the best PRE-FLOP hand...
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

Guest
It kinda irritates me when people talk about freerolls like theyre 100% luck. They say you cant bluff, you cant this or that but its not true. If someone has the skill to make it past 75% of the field, most of the people who are left are decent players. Bluffing works, raising works, etc. People who say they dont play freerolls because they are all luck arent good enough to push past the fish.
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

A Member
We all have opinions and I'm not sure if I like the comment about not being good enough to play a freeroll. I was good enough to win last weeks buy-in tourney...

I'm sure you're correct that if you wait out the crazies that eventually the field stabilizes to a more civilized game; however, it's not worth my time and effort to do this. I played in the Forum challenge which had nearly 1500 players and outlasted 1300 of them.

If you're a better player than I am (or others like me that avoid freerolls), I suggest you put your $5 on the line Saturday and prove it
 
N

nujol

Guest
Playing in a free-roll game versus for money does make a difference. Even in cash games if the buy is is not a huge amount its hard to force people out. If you make your big bet, get a caller, and you miss on the flop, its fine to bet strong but just don't make the mistake of automatically putting all your chips in. Try to make a decent sized bet if you are first to act in order to force out someone who has nothing, but why risk all of your money. You might even get someone who called with a low pocket pair and hit his/her set. Bet, if you're raised, fold. If you're second to act, see and the other person bets, you just need to base what the person has on your gut and how that person' has been feeling. Either way, it definitely does take experience to figure out how to bet in those circumstances.
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
Here's the thing...freerolls for practice against maniacs is ok. Freerolls for practice playing aginst large fields is fine. But to say that a freeroll involves as much skill as a middle stakes game (especially early in the freeroll) is just not true. You go play a 5/10 or a 10/20 or even a 3/6 and the talent level of the players and their understanding of basic fundementals is increased exponentially. When they are having to take 20 or 30 dollars of their real, hard earned cash and put it in a pot chasing a 2 outer (if they even calculate outs) the decision to call will be less likely. I'm not going to reopen the freeroll can of worms, suffice it to say that until you get to the top couple of percent of the original field, it really isn't sound poker being played on a LOT of hands. I know several medium stakes internet players who make a lot of money 4 tabling 5/10 or higher and they all started at the bottom of the food chain. And they all say the same thing. Until you get past the micro-limits, being sucked out on is a part of the game that you simply must learn to accept.

The exception to this, is playing cheap poker with friends or online aquaintences where the money isn't even the impetus for playing. These games will tend to be solid and afford one the luxury of actually raising people out of the pot. Also, I agree with my Irish comrade on the theory of not raising pre-flop. What difference does it make if you're 100% positive you're going to be called down in either case, why not check to see if the flop improves your hand before betting. In any other situation this is exactly wrong, but this example just illustrates why freerolls and micro-limits-in my opinion- can negatively affect your game if you take those bad habits to a real cash game.
 
IrishDave

IrishDave

A Member
Diablo hit a nail right on the head. It takes about 2 seconds to spot a freeroller that has ventured into a cash game. The playing habits developed in freerolls just don't translate well into a cash game or buy-in tourney. I welcome all you folks that don't agree to ante up and join us on Saturday...
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
thanks for the advice guys
i agree its near impossible to bet a guy out of a pot when we're talkin freerolls
and to the poster above, if you think the beginning of a freeroll is the same as middle/low buy-in tourneys, i don't know what kind of chronic you've been smoking... but save me some
thanks again
great pointers Gjs, diablo, michelle, IrishDave and everyone else
really helped
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
ChuckTs said:
thanks for the advice guys
i agree its near impossible to bet a guy out of a pot when we're talkin freerolls
and to the poster above, if you think the beginning of a freeroll is the same as middle/low buy-in tourneys, i don't know what kind of chronic you've been smoking... but save me some
thanks again
great pointers Gjs, diablo, michelle, IrishDave and everyone else
really helped
werd on the sig!
 
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