Bet sizes // micros

[ps_komaklos]

Hi all,

What bet sizes are you using to accomplish what:
(especially for micros 2NL 5NL maybe even 10NL)
I'm thinking about this for a while now and wonder how you think about it and whats your logic behind it...

I know this mixes a lot of subjects, probably too many. Like c-bets, bets for protection, value bets, bluffs or even opening sizes... But I thought it would be worth a discussion. So I try to start.

I'd say I vary my bet sizes not (really) accordingly to my cards/strength but more how I think it can be played well against a certain player type.
e.g.
c-Bet flop: may vary between 1/3pot – 1pot
1/3p: value bet against a tight player, or provoke a reRaise from a more aggressive one, sometimes even as a cheap bluff.
1/2p: regular c-bet size as starting ground, most of the time I go a little up or down
2/3p: value bet against a reg., protection against reg or as a bluff
3/4–1p: value bet against a sticky player. If he calls more than 1/2p anyhow, bet more get more money in the pot. Or as protection let him pay a lot for his draw.

Opening sizes:
Against unknown and reg 3x from every position.
Against really crazy players sometimes more or a lot more.

I'm curious to hear what you think and play for what reasons.

(like always: sorry for English, I'm still learning.)

 

[bakreni]

most off players in micro are lose so 4-5 bb for me is standard ..i dont play with tight end good players if i dont have premium hand becase ther is not where you want to make money ...ypo wont to play against lose players

 

[ps_komaklos]

most off players in micro are lose so 4-5 bb for me is standard ..i dont play with tight end good players if i dont have premium hand becase ther is not where you want to make money ...ypo wont to play against lose players

Do I understand you right? You just play big hands for really big open raises and hope a loose player is gonna call? On what site do you play?
In my experience on poker stars 2NL, there are always all kinds of players from supernits (e.g. vpip: 5/ pfr: 5) to absolute maniacs (e.g. 90/78). But generally, I would say players today are nitty anyway and even a bit nittier in Zoom.
If you just play against loose players you miss a lot of opportunities and make yourself really exploitable in my opinion.

 

[bakreni]

i play zoom end way would you play in zoom somthing what is not big hand..end 30% off the time people call with bad hands end if you get call from regular thats always very good hand ...most off them flat with qq ,kk ak so for me is beter play carefully with them end do not tray playing big pots except if i have nuts are some thing close to that

 

[quant1986]

I think you need to consider board texture as well.

bone dry board like K83r, should be favorable to preflop raiser range,
If I have AK/KQ, maybe cbet 40-50% aiming to get called by KJ,88-TT,AQ,AJ,A8,A3 etc

If I have QQ/88/KK or Ax, maybe 30% or check-back

If I have JJ/TT/98, perhaps I would bet 60-70% and hope villain to fold AJ,AQ,QJ etc

If I have air or low pairs, the size could be 30-70% or check-fold depending on villain fold to turn cbet frequency as well.

You are right adjustment should be made to player type, for very sticky calling station , maybe larger size with value hands makes perfect sense

 

[ps_komaklos]

I think you need to consider board texture as well.

bone dry board like K83r, should be favorable to preflop raiser range,
If I have AK/KQ, maybe cbet 40-50% aiming to get called by KJ,88-TT,AQ,AJ,A8,A3 etc

If I have QQ/88/KK or Ax, maybe 30% or check-back

If I have JJ/TT/98, perhaps I would bet 60-70% and hope villain to fold AJ,AQ,QJ etc

If I have air or low pairs, the size could be 30-70% or check-fold depending on villain fold to turn cbet frequency as well.

You are right adjustment should be made to player type, for very sticky calling station , maybe larger size with value hands makes perfect sense

Yes for sure board texture is really important. thanks, good post.
""If I have QQ/88/KK or Ax, maybe 30% or check-back"" Check back QQ/Ax is interesting. I would probably bet flop on the Kxx board (as preflop raiser).

 

[This Fish Chums]

Some micro stakes bet sizing

In a low-stakes cash game where it won't harm my bankroll if I lose, if I have a great preflop hand (AA, KK, QQ, AK) I'll bet 5-10BBs. The reasoning is I want to push out the tight players and tempt the maniacs into calling with the thought of how much they could win if they just hit their QJo.
C-betting I keep to a minimum and more often rely on feeler bets to get an idea of what the opponent is holding. The reasoning is that true c-betting (betting just because you betted the pre-flop and you're bluffing when you missed the flop) isn't worth it because so many people will see the pot and just call you down with mid-pair.
If I hit the flop hard I bet hard. I want to push everyone out before they catch me on the river.

 

[quant1986]

Yes for sure board texture is really important. thanks, good post.
""If I have QQ/88/KK or Ax, maybe 30% or check-back"" Check back QQ/Ax is interesting. I would probably bet flop on the Kxx board (as preflop raiser).

My flop cbet is lower than usual micro optimal 70% , could be skewed by 888 6-max NL2 default 50BB buyin , so there is lack of implied odds for 3 streets play (eg runner runner flush/straight)

I am sure it is fine to cbet Ax or Axss with back door potential, when effective stack is 100BB in single raised pot.

QQ on K high board OOP...I am not sure about this but I usually go for two streets value and forms my delayed cbet range for 50BB stack depth.
There could be an argument it blocks KQ so the caller range should be weaker and you can go for 3 street values, but you know NL2 players could have many weak K.

 

[ps_komaklos]

My flop cbet is lower than usual micro optimal 70% , could be skewed by 888 6-max NL2 default 50BB buyin , so there is lack of implied odds for 3 streets play (eg runner runner flush/straight)

I am sure it is fine to cbet Ax or Axss with back door potential, when effective stack is 100BB in single raised pot.

QQ on K high board OOP...I am not sure about this but I usually go for two streets value and forms my delayed cbet range for 50BB stack depth.
There could be an argument it blocks KQ so the caller range should be weaker and you can go for 3 street values, but you know NL2 players could have many weak K.

I never thought about the c-bet frequency compared to stack sizes. That's a nice input!

The Ax, well also depending on position/opponent/dynamic I would say I'm betting as a bluff not value on the Kxx board, as preflop raiser my range contains a lot of Ax, Kx. This is also about frequency when I bet e.g. 1/3p or 2/3p the opponent just needs to fold more than 25% or 40% which I think is easily achievable. If the opponent folds more it's profitable.

QQ your probably right, maybe I play this to scared.
But here I would bet flop for a similar reason and also protection.

 

[Sorin Iliescu]

Good topic, i've learnt a lot of things

 

[NHequalsFU]

If I raise pre-flop its usually 3x the blind plus another blind for each limper.

If I'm 3-betting it depends on stack sizes of villains but usually I go for same 3x their raise.

C-betting depends on the board texture, opponent and stacks.

If board is wet I'm c-betting 3/4 to pot sized most times and possibly just overshoving depending on opponent and stacks.

Dry boards against passive I'm looking at 1/2 pot sized for value. Against aggressive I may bet smaller to induce a raise.

If I'm bluffing I go for the same sizing as you don't want to change sizing based on your own hand strength.

 

[Ludiq Elchapo]

best limit for micros is 0.10/0.20 or 0.25/0.50$ normal tables because of playing zoom is only depending on luck you can't watch other players how them play ..

 

[ps_komaklos]

best limit for micros is 0.10/0.20 or 0.25/0.50$ normal tables because of playing zoom is only depending on luck you can't watch other players how them play ..

I don't think it's depending on the stakes. I'm still at 2NL and play regular or zoom tables depending on the time I have to spend. In my experience, regular tables tend to have often looser and more calling friendly players compared to the zoom tables. But both formats are fine to play. I would not say zoom is depending on luck more but the chance your opponent does have a strong holding because he can fold a lot of crap quickly is certainly there. On the other hand, many players at zoom are overly tight and give away their bilnds for free too often.

 

[Nymets5]

In a low-stakes cash game where it won't harm my bankroll if I lose, if I have a great preflop hand (AA, KK, QQ, AK) I'll bet 5-10BBs. The reasoning is I want to push out the tight players and tempt the maniacs into calling with the thought of how much they could win if they just hit their QJo.
C-betting I keep to a minimum and more often rely on feeler bets to get an idea of what the opponent is holding. The reasoning is that true c-betting (betting just because you betted the pre-flop and you're bluffing when you missed the flop) isn't worth it because so many people will see the pot and just call you down with mid-pair.
If I hit the flop hard I bet hard. I want to push everyone out before they catch me on the river.

Raising this much preflop with only those premium hands seems like a tell no?

 

[This Fish Chums]

Raising this much preflop with only those premium hands seems like a tell no?

Well, it's no different then only going all-in with premium hands. But yeah, it can be a tell if it's the only way you play them and if they are the only hands you play this way.

 

[blueskies]

Against bad players just vary your bet sizing according to hand strength.

Against observant/competent players try to keep bet consistently 2/3 to 3/4 of pot.


Where I get into trouble is I give opponents too much credit. I overthink.

Just play ABC and hope lady luck isn't gonna anal probe you that day.

 

[Nymets5]

Well, it's no different then only going all-in with premium hands. But yeah, it can be a tell if it's the only way you play them and if they are the only hands you play this way.

Ok thanks that makes sense. From the op I read it as you only play those hands that way.

 

[Nymets5]

Well, it's no different then only going all-in with premium hands. But yeah, it can be a tell if it's the only way you play them and if they are the only hands you play this way.

Ok thanks that makes sense. From the op I read it as you only play those hands that way.

 

[ps_komaklos]

Against bad players just vary your bet sizing according to hand strength.

Against observant/competent players try to keep bet consistently 2/3 to 3/4 of pot.


Where I get into trouble is I give opponents too much credit. I overthink.

Just play ABC and hope lady luck isn't gonna anal probe you that day.

:five:

I know the overthinking problem well.
But your conclusion saved my day.

 

[ps_komaklos]

Here are some starting points for bet sizes preflop that I normally use:


Squeeze and 3-bet sizes in BB to the according to open raise sizes.
+-----------+-------+-------+----------+------- +
| ---------- OOP ----- | | | ---------- IP -------- | |
+-----------+-------+-------+----------+------- +
| -SQz--| ---3b---|--open--|----3b----|---SQz--|
+-----------+-------+-------+----------+--------+
| -16bb-|--12bb--|---4bb--|--11bb-- |-15bb--|
+-----------+-------+-------+----------+--------+
| -15bb-|--10bb--|---3bb--|---9bb---|-14bb--|
+-----------+-------+-------+----------+--------+
| -13bb-|--8,5bb-|--2,5bb-|---8bb---|-12bb--|
+-----------+-------+-------+----------+--------+
| -12bb-|--7bb---|--2bb--|--6,5bb--|--11bb--|
+-----------+-------+-------+----------+--------+

(Sorry for the awful table. I didn't manage to put the html table into the post it was just a posted code block and the regular spaces keep getting deleted by the preview so just try this and hope you can understand it.)

 

[509fio]

Charge big draws with a pot size bet
Overbet for value on river
30-40% leads for info with marginal holding