Believing the Check-raise

Stick66

Stick66

Legend
Joined
Nov 10, 2005
Total posts
6,374
Why don't I believe enough check-raises? Check-raise bluffs are rare, so why don't I get it? Am I just a skeptic? Do I hate being bluffed? Do I get offended/tilted by being check-raised? (Semi-rhetorical, but feel free to comment.)

POKERSTARS GAME #13934306900: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/18 - 00:01:49 (ET)
Table 'Iocaste' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Csacsifiu ($14.05 in chips)
Seat 2: Ernest Evans ($14.60 in chips)
Seat 3: Mr. CA$HMAN ($16.55 in chips)
Seat 4: justcauze ($26.35 in chips)
Seat 5: BMTrounder ($6.65 in chips)
Seat 7: guumba23 ($26.35 in chips)
Seat 8: Prosper777 ($23 in chips)
Seat 9: MrSticker66 ($17.95 in chips)
Ernest Evans: posts small blind $0.10
Mr. CA$HMAN: posts big blind $0.25
pokerlarry: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker66 [Jh Ac]
justcauze: folds
BMTrounder: calls $0.25
guumba23: folds
Prosper777: folds
MrSticker66: raises $0.75 to $1
Csacsifiu: folds
Ernest Evans: calls $0.90
Mr. CA$HMAN: folds
BMTrounder: folds
*** FLOP *** [Th 4h Qh]
Ernest Evans: checks
MrSticker66: bets $2
Ernest Evans: calls $2
*** TURN *** [Th 4h Qh] [5c]
Ernest Evans: checks
MrSticker66: bets $4.95
Ernest Evans: raises $6.65 to $11.60 and is all-in
MrSticker66: calls $6.65
*** RIVER *** [Th 4h Qh 5c] [Jd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ernest Evans: shows [Ah Qd] (a pair of Queens)
MrSticker66: mucks hand
Ernest Evans collected $28.25 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $29.70 | Rake $1.45
Board [Th 4h Qh 5c Jd]
Seat 1: Csacsifiu (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Ernest Evans (small blind) showed [Ah Qd] and won ($28.25) with a pair of Queens
Seat 3: Mr. CA$HMAN (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: justcauze folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BMTrounder folded before Flop
Seat 7: guumba23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Prosper777 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: MrSticker66 mucked [Jh Ac]

POKERSTARS GAME #13978030072: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/12/20 - 02:31:30 (ET)
Table 'Tesla' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Trance21 ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Tool14 ($7.85 in chips)
Seat 3: Maldfoid ($5 in chips)
Seat 4: gatmik875 ($16.60 in chips)
Seat 5: GreatSam ($22.40 in chips)
Seat 6: woekan ($22.05 in chips)
Seat 7: lolabunny07 ($1.80 in chips)
Seat 8: MrSticker66 ($18.45 in chips)
Seat 9: HD EasyRider ($44.90 in chips)
Tool14: posts small blind $0.10
Maldfoid: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker66 [Th Kh]
gatmik875: calls $0.25
GreatSam: calls $0.25
woekan: folds
lolabunny07: folds
MrSticker66: calls $0.25
HD EasyRider: calls $0.25
Trance21: folds
Tool14: calls $0.15
Maldfoid: checks
*** FLOP *** [5c 8h Ks]
Tool14: checks
Maldfoid: checks
gatmik875: checks
GreatSam: checks
MrSticker66: bets $1.50
HD EasyRider: folds
Tool14: folds
Maldfoid: folds
gatmik875: folds
GreatSam: calls $1.50
*** TURN *** [5c 8h Ks] [6h]
GreatSam: checks
MrSticker66: bets $4
GreatSam: raises $16.65 to $20.65 and is all-in
MrSticker66: calls $12.70 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [5c 8h Ks 6h] [As]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GreatSam: shows [Kc Qh] (a pair of Kings)
MrSticker66: mucks hand
GreatSam collected $36.05 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $37.90 | Rake $1.85
Board [5c 8h Ks 6h As]
Seat 1: Trance21 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Tool14 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Maldfoid (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: gatmik875 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: GreatSam showed [Kc Qh] and won ($36.05) with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: woekan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: lolabunny07 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: MrSticker66 mucked [Th Kh]
Seat 9: HD EasyRider folded on the Flop
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
In both cases they delayed it until the turn where an innocuous card hits, so that might be part of it.

But, I have the same problem. Usually it's either 1) I'm being aggressive/leading and something in my head convinces me that they're just playing back at me, or 2) something convinces me that I'm a "better" player than they are, so obviously I have the better hand and they're just desperately trying to push me off, or 3) I can't fold because then I'll appear weak or it'll be obvious to everyone that I'm c-betting.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

Cardschat Elite
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Total posts
4,596
Check raise bluffs are very rare, especially at lower levels, and especially if they are on later streets when a non-scare card hits (tells you that the donk was "trapping," usually in an inappropriate case where their hand is really too weak to do so, or draws are on the board). In both the above cases, however, you had just enough to call (depending on your read) unfortunately.
 
B

barney102

Rising Star
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Total posts
11
I agree that check raise bluffs are rare but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen online. Some of your calls may have been loose, but it was a bit strange for that opposite player to check check top pair.
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
it depends when the check raise occurs. On the turn, it is very rarely a bluff. But on the flop that is a different story. I like to check raise my draws aswell as my big hands to mix it up
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
it depends when the check raise occurs. On the turn, it is very rarely a bluff. But on the flop that is a different story.


Interesting point switch. One that I hadn't considered before. I might flip back through my PT hands and see the degree to which that holds true in the games that I've played.
 
S

switch0723

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Sep 2, 2007
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8,430
i think i might to just to see if i am right. But off the top of my head i cant recall a time when someone has ever check raised turn on a bluff
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
This is one of my biggest leaks, Stick. Not necessarily just check-raises, but when people give me action in any shape or form, I assume they're bluffing for whatever reason.

After playing a lot more recently I've been able to make bigger and bigger folds, but the problem's still there. I've basically told myself not to stack without what is obviously the best hand, if I'm getting really good odds to call, or if I have a solid read that I'm ahead. Seems to help, but it's basically something you need to try to work on yourself. Try folding everything but the nuts in stacking spots for a week or something similar to that, then adjust based on your experience.
 
S

switch0723

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Try folding everything but the nuts in stacking spots for a week or something similar to that, then adjust based on your experience.

I think thats a great idea for anyone who is having trouble folding. Id advise them to stay at mega low limits though since they may not make as much money as hoped with this strategy, but it will definately improve discipline
 
M

MrMeany2U

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Dec 16, 2007
Total posts
7
wooot ... one of my favorite stunts ... sorry .... but how to fight a check raise ... the only way to tell if they are just leading you down a blind alley is to raise them after they raise you (mmmm trust me on this .. most of the times that I check and then raise is when I have 3 of a kind or something better ... but have been known to just be blowing smoke) ... don't pot commit yourself with a raise ... but if you think you have the hand ... put it on the table ... leave yourself something to fall back on in case they call ... if the checker/raiser reraises ... its on you and what you think you have ... if they just call ... your equal in cards sort of .... play it up ...
 
dj11

dj11

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Promise yourself you'll cut off a finger the next time you call a check-raise and lose.
 
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