Beating loose aggressive players?

B

benjy

Guest
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Total posts
2
Hi guys I need some help here.

I play at some big ring games (equivalent of US$400 to US$1200 sit-down) and normally make money playing tight-aggressive, occasionally mixing it up abit by calling raises with low suited connectors etc when in last position and stuff like that.

However recently I have had a very very bad run, coming up against loose-aggressive players who will draw to anything, play any two cards, and basically gambling blind in general. I find it impossible to win against such players and have always been outdrawn (I'm not a very lucky guy) for huge amounts. Basically against such players you can't protect your cards.

Examples of my beats in the past 2 weeks:

1) I've had A-3 of clubs and this other guy has K-9 of clubs, the flop comes two clubs and A of hearts. The guy bets $50, and I set him all in for about $500 and he calls - and he hits runner runner K and 9 with no clubs.

2) I've limped with 2-5 suited and the flop comes 2-2-3. I bet the equivalent of US$400 and my opponent calls. On the turn I bet another $400 and he calls. The turn and river are A and 4 respectively and I've improved from trips to a straight. He sets me all-in for $900 and I call, he shows a runner-runner flush which I couldn't put him on, and I lose about $1700 in one pot.

3) I've got K-10 suited and the flop comes K-10-3, I go all in for US$750 and I get called by a lunatic woman who shows AQ and sure enough a Jack hits on the river!

4) Today I've limped with J-Q off and the flop comes Q-6-3, I bet out for about $60 and get a call, the turn comes another 6, and I bet $100, the guy puts me all in for about $400 total and I call, he shows 6-9 offsuit. This is by the way the same guy who sucked me out in (2).

5) Worst of all, today I had KK and raised to $50 (blinds were $4) preflop, I get about 3 callers including a guy (a renowned loose aggressive player who plays any 2 cards) who goes all-in on the flop which 5-6-7. I am sure he doesn't have a straight, so I call for about $500, and he shows 5-8 off, obviously he hits a straight and I lose - by the way he goes all in BLIND.

I know people say "in the long run you will win if you play correct poker" but I have been up against such players all week long and honestly I have lost much more than I've won - if I win, its because they fold to my bets, and I win pots of $100 or $200, but if I lose, it's always a massive pot of $500 or more because I've tried to protect my cards and obviously gotten outdrawn. Even if I have an edge over them, say I win 7 out of 10 pots, its no good if each of the 7 wins are for $100 but the 3 losses are for $500 each! And that's precisely what's happened!

Any advice about what I should do? Because I am totally lost and have lost about $4,400 to such players this week, always getting my money in while ahead, but getting outdrawn - that's nearly my entire bankroll and easily covers my profits for the past two months.

Any advice at all will be VERY appreciated.

Thanks!
 
MrDaMan

MrDaMan

Visionary
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Total posts
529
Bankroll management is the answer.

If you can afford to play the game, you can afford to take the hit to your bankroll. In the long run you WILL make bank on these players.

Stay within your BR management scheme, remember not to play when your losing. If the LAG (lucky) player is on a rush and you can't beat him <<<DON"T PLAY>>>.

If you're within you BR management comfort zone, you need to gage the action, get your feel for the game, get the right reads and if its working for you stay in and take the LAG (maniac) down. If it's not working for you <<<QUIT>>>.

Check your own emotional levels, honestly look at your tilt tendency, if the maniac gets under your skin you might be making bad decisions. Targeting someone for bad beat revenge can be costly to your BR. Thinking "I can get lucky too" Isn't the answer, negative swings coupled with a maniac getting lucky can tilt the best of us.

Re-check why your playing, are you playing to win or playing because you like playing poker? If your losing and stepping outside of you BR management to continue playing that's fine if you don't mind losing.

Staying within your BR management scheme and recognizing when your in the zone and doing well <<<PLAY>>>, when your not in the zone and losing, then having the discipline to <<<QUIT>>> will keep your records in the positive column.

I personally have a hard time quitting, I just LOVE playing poker but this is sooooooo key to being a winning player most people ignore it. If your losing DON'T PLAY. As frustrating and depressing as it is to admit your losing and quit, it's a heck of a lot worse to lose even more and have to quit because you've depleted your bankroll.

It's impossible to dominate and win every game, learn when to quit and when to play, have the discipline to stay within your BR management and to quit when losing. If your emotions are effected by your opponents so will your play, if the bad beats keep coming and your playing right then you know it's time to quit. If it wasn't for luck a skilled player would win them all but luck is a factor in poker, if it's with you play, if it's not don't.

Easy to say harder to do. Good Luck. :D
 
Goron

Goron

Guest
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Total posts
18
sounds too me...

Sounds to me like you almost wanted to post your bad beat storys on a forum. Sorry it just looks like that too me.

I am a pretty successful poker player and I tend to be a little more looser and really aggressive. So I have that Loose Aggressive image poker play your exactly afraid against. Your defintly gonna get your bad beats to players like "us" because we will be playing so many more hands and dont mind gambling.

but the way to really beat players like us it really comes down to this. You pick a hand and you stick with it. If I know a player dosent like being in a pot with me and has been passive I will continuously make sure im the pot with them just to bully them around. But the players I know that can call a big bet with just 1 pair I dont try to get too tricky with them.

My number one advice id like to give too you is, always make sure you dont show your frustration on the poker table. Someone like me and others will spot that easily. 2nd dont let people know your on a bad run. I guess its moer for me about table image than anything. Just hang in there and youll be alright. And remember DONT BE AFRAID when your in a hand with those kinda bullys. Pick one hand and go all the way with it even if its costs you. itll make you money in the long run.

also if you want a cheap way to make sure they dont try to bully you. Pick a hand and call a bet when you know your Beat just to show the table DONT MESS WITH ME ILL CALL YOU WITH ANYTHING YOU PUNKS!!!!!!

:) :)
 
B

benjy

Guest
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Total posts
2
Thanks for the comments and suggestions guys. Much appreciated.

I think the point about "not letting it get to you" is important. If I'm honest, I probably would have to admit that I've let it get to my head. All of the above beats occurred only against two particular players and I've allowed it to get to me. Once I folded J-Q to a small bet (against another player, non-LAG) when the board had JJ5, and the guy won the pot against another player with J-8. That was when I realised it was getting to me. But honestly, is it really realistic for anyone (even pros) to NOT get affected at all by not one by a whole string of bad beats, all of them happening within a one or two week period? Admittedly, I probably have been tilting to some extent, laying down some strong hands, and overplaying some marginal hands only to get outdrawn and still calling them down when I know I'm beat - the desire to get "revenge" for the bad beats is really something that can cloud your judgment.

It would be much appreciated if you guys could give me some suggestions on how not to get affected and how to keep emotions in check etc. I play poker because I like the game but first and foremost my intention is to WIN, not just because of the money but because I am the sort of person who is driven by results, I am not a very good loser and some have accused me of being a bad sport, but basically I take it quite hard whenever I lose at anything. I know you can't win all the time in poker but what annoys me is playing the cards right and still losing to someone who made a crazy call.

At the end of the day I'm not saying these guys are total maniacs, one of them in particular is a very good player and he's good at sensing weakness and picking up reads etc but that doesn't mean he isn't prone to going in for a massive gamble once in awhile (going all-in with 8-5 offsuit).

Such players are hard to read because they play any two cards the same way, so how am I to take them down without having the stone cold nuts (which I very rarely do)?
 
MrDaMan

MrDaMan

Visionary
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Total posts
529
Hey an honest reply, I would say how refreshing except fortunately CardsChat for the most part is usually honest with exceptions of course.

I'm not a "winning" cash player *Yet* but this year I am 75% better than the last two years, and I don't play at your level of buy-in, so my advice is free, take it or leave it, use what makes sense to you.

I once asked some pros to define "ROCK" and I couldn't get a straight answer, except that I shouldn't play like one. But without defining what a "rock" is it's hard to gage exactly where that magical place is.

I've had some success against the type of scenario you describe by tightening up and playing them post flop, pre-flop I'll push K/K and A/A hard, but beating these guys for me has been better post flop. Suited connectors, premium hands and I'm looking to make trips, two pair or top pair flush draws, and open ended straights, keep it cheap as possible and if I catch, either on the flop, or turn I will value bet the heck out of it.

Table image is very important, to keep the turn and river cheap, as I said in my earlier post it's important to be "winning", if you've been losing and they think they can push you off the flop they will bet the turn and river hard making you fold. If your not winning, if your behind, when they bet into you you have to fold, you are weak and they sense it. You have to tighten up even more and look to catch that magic flop and slam them with huge value bets.

If the cards aren't cooperating with you, and your losing you have to QUIT trying to outluck them won't work. If the game is too hard, admit it and move to another table, if the game is making you think and be defensive, move or quit. If you can stay on offense with confidence and your strategies are working STAY in the game. Monitoring and keeping check on your own emotions makes a big difference.

Remember winning? How confident you are? How almost every play you make is brilliant and you win? You have to get in that zone, if you're not in that zone, quit and or change tables until you get in that zone. You can't get there all of the time, this is all part of picking the right table, being rested and in top form.

If I'm not winning I refuse to play, I'll take my money and go home. :D If I can take your money I'll play all night, 72 hrs, a week straight, but if I'm having problems and things aren't adding up right ... I quit.
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

Guest
Joined
Oct 15, 2007
Total posts
825
Another thing you could try is to initially buy-in for less than usual and re-raise (with good, but not necessarily premium hands) the bullies all-in preflop or the flop. If you are consitently favorite, you would be making a little with this strategy and will establish a wild image. You can then add to your buy-in later(if needed).
 
Goron

Goron

Guest
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Total posts
18
word...

Listen it gets to everyone a bad streak of cards. Otherwise we wouldnt talk about it if it didnt effect anyone. Im very close with alot of top pros, I defintly am not one but i have a good source of wealth of information.

it gets to everyone and when your running bad you play a little diffrent it just happens. Until you get your groove again. Its like football, some people lose their grooves from time to time, and then they will get it back. Poker is a sport some days youll be on top of your game some days you wont.

The important thing is that you are trying to get better and thats all you need and already have an edge over 50 percent of the poker playing population :)

-Goron
 
Goldog

Goldog

Rock Star
Joined
Dec 9, 2005
Total posts
377
It would be much appreciated if you guys could give me some suggestions on how not to get affected and how to keep emotions in check etc. I play poker because I like the game but first and foremost my intention is to WIN, not just because of the money but because I am the sort of person who is driven by results, I am not a very good loser and some have accused me of being a bad sport, but basically I take it quite hard whenever I lose at anything. I know you can't win all the time in poker but what annoys me is playing the cards right and still losing to someone who made a crazy call.
Here's the problem

First and foremost your intention should be to make proper decisions. If you make your GOAL to play well your emotions should just stay out of it.

"Zen and the ART of Poker" helped me a lot to see this.

As a sport, poker is more like surfing than football. You can't force a good wave out of the ocean. You can only pick the best ones and ride em' as well as you can. If you hate to lose etc.. you're playing with a football mentality. Read "Zen" or Mike Caro or whatever will help you to understand.

In a high variance game such as yours it's easy to 2nd guess yourself when you lose. If you are indeed making good decisions, mentally pat yourself on the back and move on to the next hand. Always examine what you may have done wrong, but if you played it right you are "winning".

Also, it sounds like you're playing above your "comfort zone". Obviously this makes it hard to keep emotions in check. I like the small buy in suggestion or maybe a smaller game is in order.

goldog
 
mendozaline

mendozaline

Rock Star
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Total posts
101
Never underestimate the guy(s) who are winning the money. They may just be better than you in some way that is unknown to you.

Sure, it seems like they are just wild and crazy, playing this junk, sucking out this and that on the river, but I suspect that someone who's willing to risk that much money AND IS WINNING, might not be quite the donk he appears to be at first blush.

There's probably method to their madness. So, my vote would be: smaller buy-in, and if that doesn't help go to a smaller game until you're absolutely sure you're winning again.

Also, you can test my theory that they are better than you for free using play money in Heads-Up play. According to Daniel Negreanu, "heads-up poker is the most skill oriented form of the game. In some ways heads-up poker is less about playing the cards you're dealt, and more about playing your opponent."

I believe there are alot of good players out there that practice their heads-up skills using freerolls. Sure, it takes the money emotion out of it, but I've found that if someone is practicing poker, he's trying his best to win. Most times, anyway. And just like with real money, the higher the stakes, the better the player (usually, anyway because you have to build up the 100s of thousands of chips needed by winning, you can't buy them). I've played against many of them. Some of the really good ones make you feel like you're playing Roshambo, and the guy's got your number. No matter what you try, he's one step ahead of you.

I played late one night against a guy for about an hour at a 200-400 table. It was absolutely astonishing to me. It was hopeless. At the lower limits I've beaten many other players at times, but there was no way I could beat this guy. At the end of an hour, I said, "Uncle. Thanks for the game." To which he replied, "Thank you. Take care."

A perfect gentlemen. One could learn alot of from him, I suspect.
 
Goron

Goron

Guest
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Total posts
18
Here's the problem

As a sport, poker is more like surfing than football. You can't force a good wave out of the ocean. You can only pick the best ones and ride em' as well as you can. If you hate to lose etc.. you're playing with a football mentality. Read "Zen" or Mike Caro or whatever will help you to understand.

goldog

man thats an awsome way to look at poker. Props too you !!
 
Top