Anyone try small ball poker in cash game?

ARMYNAC

ARMYNAC

Enthusiast
Has it worked for you? Im always T.A.G In cash games... and maby i'll try it, but wondering if anyone here has any exp on that.
 
W

Wichita Wins

Rising Star
Small ball poker in cash game

What is small ball poker in a cash game? I have never heard of it.
 
W

Wichita Wins

Rising Star
Small ball poker in cash game

I have learned the name small ball, thanks that was a good article. The link on the bottom of that article also gave me some insight. I read the article on reading your opponents and agree with the input except when playing on free rolls. I have played cash games on cruise ships and it seems fairly easy to read many of the players. The online games there is no telling where the players are coming from and you don't get to play enough against them to figure out their strategy. Again, thanks for the link to the articles.
 
evildoesit2003

evildoesit2003

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First time I have come across this name, sounds like a sound way to play some good poker.
 
W

William Wright

Rising Star
i like to buy in with the minium in cash games n try my luck sometimes it might work most of the time i just play on feel.
 
tbdbitl

tbdbitl

Legend
at times in a live 1/2 game where you are going to get > 3 callers to a $12 bet, I will back my bet off and proceed cautiously.
I usually am a TAG. But, in this scenario, it has saved me a lot to be more passive and trap.
 
Dorugremon

Dorugremon

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Has it worked for you? Im always T.A.G In cash games... and maby i'll try it, but wondering if anyone here has any exp on that.

Daniel Negreanu likes to take credit for inventing small ball, but he didn't. I've been playing that way ever since NL became common after ESPN discovered Poker could be a spectator sport.

I use this play all the time, and it's the only way that makes sense. If there's 1.5BB in the pot, and you raise 2XBB from the button to steal, you're laying 4 : 3. You need to succeed four out of seven attempts to have an immediate break-even. Pop it for 3XBB, and you're laying 2 : 1. Now you need to succeed two out of three attempts, and that's much worse.

When the table gets short-handed, there's not much reason to make it more than 2XBB, as there are fewer potential callers.

"at times in a live 1/2 game where you are going to get > 3 callers to a $12 bet..."

When you see that, it means they're afraid of playing post. I'm not afraid of the post flop game. You have a couple of choices: raise bigger to find that tipping point that gets them out. That, however, can get expensive when you miss. C-bets become larger, and/or you'll have to concede many BB's.

I pretend it's FLHE and play it the same: raise small, open limp like it's fixed limit, expect pots to go multi-way more often than not. That means playing hands with staying power in multi-way pots. One advantage is that it's still no-limit, and you can stack 'em when you smash the flop.
 
dj11

dj11

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Daniel Negreanu likes to take credit for inventing small ball, but he didn't. I've been playing that way ever since NL became common after ESPN discovered Poker could be a spectator sport.

I use this play all the time, and it's the only way that makes sense. If there's 1.5BB in the pot, and you raise 2XBB from the button to steal, you're laying 4 : 3. You need to succeed four out of seven attempts to have an immediate break-even. Pop it for 3XBB, and you're laying 2 : 1. Now you need to succeed two out of three attempts, and that's much worse.

When the table gets short-handed, there's not much reason to make it more than 2XBB, as there are fewer potential callers.

"at times in a live 1/2 game where you are going to get > 3 callers to a $12 bet..."

When you see that, it means they're afraid of playing post. I'm not afraid of the post flop game. You have a couple of choices: raise bigger to find that tipping point that gets them out. That, however, can get expensive when you miss. C-bets become larger, and/or you'll have to concede many BB's.

I pretend it's FLHE and play it the same: raise small, open limp like it's fixed limit, expect pots to go multi-way more often than not. That means playing hands with staying power in multi-way pots. One advantage is that it's still no-limit, and you can stack 'em when you smash the flop.

My cash game is very similar, and doesn't vary much from my tourney philosophy. In both cases it is mostly 'don't go broke with BS'.

This keeps my stress levels low, and the enjoyment high.
 
pescaofish

pescaofish

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Small Stack Strategy

From Intellipoker some 5 years ago I learn the SSS Small Stack Strategy.
I used it for a while and then move to more challenging options.
The system teaches you to enter cash games with the minimum buy and only play top cards, otherwise fold.
 
diego farfan

diego farfan

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From Intellipoker some 2 years ago I learn the Small Stack Strategy.
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

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Daniel Negreanu likes to take credit for inventing small ball, but he didn't.
He didn't invent the style and doesn't claim he did. He just gave it its name.

"at times in a live 1/2 game where you are going to get > 3 callers to a $12 bet..."

When you see that, it means they're afraid of playing post. I'm not afraid of the post flop game. You have a couple of choices: raise bigger to find that tipping point that gets them out. That, however, can get expensive when you miss. C-bets become larger, and/or you'll have to concede many BB's.
Small ball refers to tournament poker. Good luck playing like that in cash games. You'll get run over. That's not what small ball was designed for.

Cash games are far deeper than tournaments so there's going to be more postflop play anyway, even with the larger bets.
 
George Lewis

George Lewis

Rock Star
Yes small ball is not always wise in cash games you get 3-bet to high hell. If you aren't making it a decent pot pre flop there is always someone willing to do it for you. When you can use it in a cash game it can be sneaky good but most of the time there will be a few guys that will make your life hell.
 
C

cardshark777

Enthusiast
I think small ball low variance style is what beats cash games. That tag and lag style I think is overrated. Its why you see the old guys slow down not cause their old but trying to bluff and be aggro and keep barreling just doesn't work out in the long run or they would all be doing it.
 
S

Sorin Iliescu

Rock Star
from my experience small ball does not work in freerolls as people call your bets down with weaker holdings like middle pair while you try to get the off the pot-in case you bet less than the pot size-. usually, for the bet to be convincing enough you should bet full or over pot size and this is not the idea when playing small ball. in heads up and spin&go, the strategy works fine as long as you keep the proportions lower than 80-90%
 
N

Napkins420

Rock Star
I think small ball low variance style is what beats cash games. That tag and lag style I think is overrated. Its why you see the old guys slow down not cause their old but trying to bluff and be aggro and keep barreling just doesn't work out in the long run or they would all be doing it.
A bluff only has to work 1 out of 3 times to break even, if you pick spots well then bluffing and barreling can be very profitable.

But I believe small ball works well if you are extremely good at putting people on ranges and reading situations well, because if you can't then you will be punished for those small bets.

And in live games you have a ton of calling stations that will just check call check call all dam day long , especially if you're making small bets

Imho small ball is best in a tournament situation
 
C

cardshark777

Enthusiast
I actually like big ball strategy for Tournies. Small ball is better for cash for me. In a tourney I want to win big pots so i can get deep in a tourney not small ones so I like using a big ball style. Its why you see guys who win tournies have a aggro big ball style. Like Doug Polk, Isildur, jamie gold ( i know he sucks), lex velhuis been crushing this year etc. They play very aggro in tournies. When Doug tries to use it for cash games= he hasn't profited in cash games since 2012. He couldn't even beat micros cash 6 max on twitch at texas holdem. It was kind of sad to watch but he ended up going to 9 man 1 dollar sngs for his bank roll challenge and most of his profits was from binking tournies. I know a lot of players who try big ball in cash and they always end up broke complaining they run bad.GL with it doesn't work for me.

What they don't tell you is if your bluff works 2 out of 3 times and you do take down 2 small pots that 1 time it doesn't work and you punt off your stack their goes all your profits from bluffing and now your in the red and going into tilt mode playing an angry session. Doyle didn't really do anything his super system book says to do. He slowed down played more small ball and won 7 of the 8 seasons. His cnn fake news argument was that people know how he plays haha. I was waiting to see this super system go to work and destroy cash games and he made lame excuse of people know how i play. Excuses= bull
 
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Jeshua Kane

Jeshua Kane

Rock Star
I actually like big ball strategy for Tournies. Small ball is better for cash for me. In a tourney I want to win big pots so i can get deep in a tourney not small ones so I like using a big ball style. Its why you see guys who win tournies have a aggro big ball style. Like Doug Polk, Isildur, jamie gold ( i know he sucks), lex velhuis been crushing this year etc. They play very aggro in tournies. When Doug tries to use it for cash games= he hasn't profited in cash games since 2012. He couldn't even beat micros cash 6 max on twitch at texas holdem. It was kind of sad to watch but he ended up going to 9 man 1 dollar sngs for his bank roll challenge and most of his profits was from binking tournies. I know a lot of players who try big ball in cash and they always end up broke complaining they run bad.GL with it doesn't work for me.

What they don't tell you is if your bluff works 2 out of 3 times and you do take down 2 small pots that 1 time it doesn't work and you punt off your stack their goes all your profits from bluffing and now your in the red and going into tilt mode playing an angry session. Doyle didn't really do anything his super system book says to do. He slowed down played more small ball and won 7 of the 8 seasons. His cnn fake news argument was that people know how he plays haha. I was waiting to see this super system go to work and destroy cash games and he made lame excuse of people know how i play. Excuses= bull

very insightful post
 
S

sbarnhouse

Rising Star
I think small ball is mostly only good for tournaments. Cash games you want to price out draws and worse hands when you have the best of it, and survival is not a thing like it is in tournaments because you can just re-load. Just my opinion.
 
Justin Bloomquist

Justin Bloomquist

Rock Star
I think small ball poker works better in a tournament rather than a cash game.
 
F

franknavin

Enthusiast
you'll probably have trouble beating the rake...which most new players do not factor into their long term strategy.
 
Mikeisanace777

Mikeisanace777

Rock Star
It's generally the best way to play poker period,but you must randomize

Key is this say it's a 1/3 or 2/5 cash game and you wanna be a small baller,but don't get the concept and do it at the wrong time then your in trouble. Say you on or near the button and you have 6 callers with q9 spades. A call here might be just fine you have position can flop big or speculative and are in good shape. 2 flops work good for you 10-j-4,or SSQ the suited flop gives you informational advantage and top pair,but other bets are key here, Because it was a limped pot a C bet from someone represents potential from runner ace flushes and even Queen worse so your still good to call,or just raise it a bit. Say 1/3 x 6=18 pot he c bets to 15 you raise to 30. He will probably just call to give you an idea of whats going on and if he rereaises go away it's a speculative hand. Using your chips is key to gain knowledge in any hand and gives you a general idea of where you stand and where your hand will be assuming it hits with small risk. It's ok to let people bluff you from time to time because you can play the same when you have the goods and their bluff will fail. True small ball is a differential game from position with only 3 players tops. You have 10-7,or 5-6 offsuit on the button with 3 limpers so you raise 4 x even 5 x in small games. They will often call it's just 12 bucks give or take and the the read comes on the flop. Often times these guys have k-8 k-9 AX suited and miss. They all check on a 10-5-2 flop you bet 9 bucks one caller and it turns a 7 for your 2 pair. He checks you check back and the river comes an ace and he bets 2 x the pot so you call,or you can bet the turn medium have a blank come bet again and he calls with air. It all happens keeping betting,sometimes a check works get a feel and sometimes go away your risking little as a trap alwayss playing the same in position with hands they miss giving you one pair,and sometimes doing the 1/2 the pot bet so much they just call you down when you have a set. Everyone plays different and small ball is just a style to be used at times good luck and use it vs 3 players tops.
 
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