Another question about the SB?

Kj Sexton

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Twizzy , might I suggest then just to prevent further issues....
using these ---> "...."
It's just the right thing to do , as a respect issue to someone who took the time to write it out :nods:

But either way as far as calling small blinds it really depends on the playing style once again....
I'm assuming you play tight aggressive ("good poker") and if so then they've already covered the info tenfold...
Though with the idea of either folding or raising in a heads up (just you and the big blind) on the pre-flop , thats highly subjective. I don't really think it's a bad idea to just call to get a cheap look at the flop. It forces the decision on them, it gives you a chance to read your opponett...
And from there you have a better idea of judging if he's got the better hand....
 
twizzybop

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Legal issues aside (despite the fact that the general consensus in the mod chat was that it actually is a problem, and guess what, with the legal system the way it is these days is it any wonder people want to play it safe?), and back to my original point, it's not very polite to just copy-paste other people's hard work without even giving credit, isn't it?

Hard to give credit when again.. one "Can't" posts links to other sites. There was no signature at the bottom or a copywrite in that link. So I thought I would lead by example, being that a newbie who is lurking or otherwise. They see me post a link, now why can't they?

So if I can't follow the rules, why should they?

Now back to those original threads.. really would have looked foolish Topic.. look what I recently got in my e-mail. Then in 1 thread alone would be alot of reading(which I am sure everyone would have missed or not read the full entire thing).. I even offered Nick 2 things.. I could e-mail anybody that material in those threads and I said to him "I'd take em all away myself.. but I can't do that..." meaning those threads..

I even started this thread from my own words.. would I be mad if someone took it elsewhere to other forums? Nope not at all.. I would be proud that they did cause it means someone likes my work.

By the way I also told Nick I wouldn't make any more of those threads..

Now back on topic like Nick requested..

The SB, one should be folding more from because stats clearly show that it isn't very profitable.
 
Tammy

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No reason to argue folks, just simply state the source Twizzy, that's all. Just like you would have to do for any term paper, article, report. No biggie.

Now--back to the Small Blind! I was reading FD's posts, and I have to agree with calling w/ any two cards as long as it isn't raised. The more limpers the better, because chances are the have Ax, face X...so if you get a low board, your crappy cards are suddenly golden! Much like the "BB or SB Special" referred to earlier in the thread--by Twizzy, I believe..;)
 
T

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if i have a fair hand and it is only me and the bb i will try it maybe that is why i dont make my living playing poker but there is a time you have to take a chance not all the time but if you think you have it play it
 
Alon Ipser

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juiceeQ said:
Now--back to the Small Blind! I was reading FD's posts, and I have to agree with calling w/ any two cards as long as it isn't raised. The more limpers the better, because chances are the have Ax, face X...so if you get a low board, your crappy cards are suddenly golden! Much like the "BB or SB Special" referred to earlier in the thread--by Twizzy, I believe..;)

Also with a low board you don't even have to hit your cards if you limped in from the SB or BB. A good bet with a low board will have the others saying to themselves "I should have raised preflop" then folding.
 
twizzybop

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This clearly shows EV and why calling in the SB cost him..

Table: 5126558 (real money) Seat #1 is the dealer
Seat 1 - COOLHANDDUDE ($1490 in chips)
Seat 2 - DIGTHATFUNK ($1480 in chips)
Seat 3 - RYCKY ($1480 in chips)
Seat 4 - BUSYBEAVER ($1500 in chips)
Seat 5 - ONFIRE23 ($1550 in chips)
Seat 6 - 4KILLER ($1500 in chips)
Seat 7 - STXMAN ($1500 in chips)
Seat 8 - TWIZZYBOP ($1500 in chips)
Seat 9 - CLUELESS51 ($1500 in chips)
DIGTHATFUNK - Posts small blind $10
RYCKY - Posts big blind $20
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TWIZZYBOP [5h 4s]
BUSYBEAVER - Folds
ONFIRE23 - Raises $40 to $40
4KILLER - Folds
STXMAN - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - Folds
CLUELESS51 - Folds
COOLHANDDUDE - Calls $40
DIGTHATFUNK - Calls $30
RYCKY - Calls $20
*** FLOP *** [9s Jd Qd]
DIGTHATFUNK - Bets $60
RYCKY - Folds
ONFIRE23 - Calls $60
COOLHANDDUDE - Calls $60
*** TURN *** [9s Jd Qd] [9c]
DIGTHATFUNK - Bets $120
ONFIRE23 - Folds
COOLHANDDUDE - Calls $120
*** RIVER *** [9s Jd Qd 9c] [As]
DIGTHATFUNK - Bets $140
COOLHANDDUDE - Calls $140
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DIGTHATFUNK - Shows [Qc 3s] (Two Pairs, queens and nines)
COOLHANDDUDE - Shows [Js Qs] (Two Pairs, queens and jacks)
COOLHANDDUDE Collects $860 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($860)
Board [9s Jd Qd 9c As]
Seat 1: COOLHANDDUDE (dealer) won Total ($860) HI:($860) with Two Pairs, queens and jacks [Js Qs - P:Qs,B:Qd,P:Js,B:Jd,B:As]
Seat 2: DIGTHATFUNK (small blind) HI:lost with Two Pairs, queens and nines [Qc 3s - B:Qd,P:Qc,B:9s,B:9c,B:As]
Seat 3: RYCKY (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 4: BUSYBEAVER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: ONFIRE23 Folded on the TURN
Seat 6: 4KILLER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 7: STXMAN Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: TWIZZYBOP Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: CLUELESS51 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
 
Jesus Lederer

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twizzybop said:
The SB, one should be folding more from because stats clearly show that it isn't very profitable.

I love all the math stuff but i think that the math aspect of the game, especially if we talk about no limit, it doesn´t have to be taken just as numbers show. Stats may say than it isn´t profitable to limp from the SB based just in hand vs hand odds, but you´re applying that stats on the hypothetical situation that 24 will lose more than J8 (just an example). The reality is that most time J8 will win against 24 at the showdown. Stats consider a J8 winner against 24 if community cards like this: AK6T3 comes. Technically that is true, but if we play that hand into a real game situation, it may happen that 24 win more than J8, because it may be that there isn´t showdown.

The math aspect of anything must be interpreted to understand its real use. So what i say in relation to limping or not from the SB is this:
There are basically 2 situations where a SB limp is good:
1) If you have suited connectors or middle-low pocket pair and there are some limpers, a call is justified by the odds, but a raise may get you in trouble if you´re reraised. Here the implied odds plays a huge factor, especially with low pocket pair. The same situation applies if everyone folds to you and you´re heads up, but in my opinion there a raise is better than a call.
2) This is the most important one for this thread´s discussion, because it´s about marginal hands. As i said before the math aspect of the game must be interpreted. Maybe stats shows that with 24 on the SB i´ll lose against the BB X% of the time (thinking in random hands that BB could have). But the truth is that i have a strong read on the BB and i think i can outplay him postflop, so that X% which in theory is against me, now i change it to make it be in my favour. Althought it seems that according to what i said when you´re SB you should always call, there are some problems with this point. a) You must be able to know if you really are able to outplay the BB or not. If you can´t, then the odds that makes you the loser with junk hands will be applied and are going to lose lot of money. Be honest to yourself and leave the ego at the door when you decide to play against him because you think you can outplay him postflop. b) If the BB notices that you have been calling too much from the SB he probably will start raising more, making your calls a bad play. Also you have to know if for his nature he´s aggressive and raises most time in the battle of blinds. In that case is better to raise or fold instead of limping. c) If there are more limpers, lets say 1, 2 or 3, then you must be able to outplay all your opponents, which is hard, because you´re facing all of them and the odds of winning the hand decreases (althought the pot increases, but not enough to make a limp worth all the time).
So my main point is that you should limp just when you have a "limp hand" (PP or SC) and when you can outplay your opponent postflop and you know you won´t be raised (most time) preflop, because in that case your hand value isn´t too much important. I could also add "trap hands" like J9, 36, 75, etc. when there are more limpers.
After what i said it may seem that i play almost every hand from the SB, but the true is that i don´t (sorry for not having the % of limps in the SB i do, but i don´t use PT). The key is to be selective according to the situation.

Saying that, excuse me if i "revive" the fight about the copyright and all that stuff but i want to make a little comment about that:
Twizzy, i´m not going to argue about if you were right or not, because it´s not my matter and i don´t know anything about your private conversations about this theme, but i think that you have an ego problem that doesn´t allow you to keep a discussion being able to accept that you´re wrong. I´m not talking just about this thread, i´m talking about a similar attitude you have been showing in some post where you don´t seem to be open to accept the critics and learn. It´s good to accept when you are wrong, you don´t have to be ashamed of that. The goal of a discussion is to reach to a common point (where you were completely right, completely wrong, or both opinions had some truth), and not to show that you´re right without listening and accepting your opponent´s points. For example, i´m able to accept if now you or FPaulsson don´t agree with what i said about the SB and you give valid points, because i made my post to know if i´m thinking correct or if i´m not to learn from my mistake.
I hope you take this as a constructive critic, there´s no reason to get angry with anyone if they think different than you. Just try to give your points with good manners, it´s easier to accept them in that way.

Ah, and BTW the hand you showed is not a good argument for this discussion. That player didn´t limp, he called a raise, which is completely different. And even if he would limped instead of calling a raise, you said that the hand clearly shows de EV. How can 1 hand show the EV. I could show you a hand i played few hours ago where there were some limpers and i limped from the SB with 63 offsuited. The flop came 257 and i doubled up. Saying that i played the hand well or that it shows why you should call from the SB, would be being results oriented. It wouldn´t be a valid argument, because if we are talking about EV we must refer to the long term, not to a single hand.
 
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Jesus Lederer

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Damn, i hate replying twice in a row but my edit time is gone. Just want to correct the hand i told you. Actually i had 64 and the flop came 357. It´s a fact that doesn´t matters for the discussion but wanted to correct because it would seem strange that i doubled up with 63 if the flop were 257.
 
twizzybop

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Jesus,..

I am going to ignore the rest of the BS, refrain from making you look bad, while proving you wrong(wouldn't want my ego to make your head spin so fast you wouldn't know which end was up or down),and stick with the subject at hand..

And even if he would limped instead of calling a raise, you said that the hand clearly shows de EV. How can 1 hand show the EV.

That hand no matter what position has a - EV...So even limping there would serve no purpose...

Even your 6,3 the expected value is in the red..

So you it is your choice to play the cards that have a negative expected value from the sb but I prefer to gain profit from cards that have a profit from expected value. You waste chips from the SB while I will save them..
 
Jesus Lederer

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Ok, lets stick with the main theme...
I saw the link you mentioned and understood everything about negative and positive EV. It´s obvious that 63 doesn´t have a good EV against other hands, but i´ll repeat my point: The stats only show that in the long term 63 will be an inferior hand than others, and theorically you would lose money with it because at showdown more often is going to be the loser than the winner. But again, you need to interprete those stats. You have to take in consideration that you can win without having the best hand. Sometimes the value of your hand doesn´t matter.
I think you didn´t take time to read carefully all my post. I explain better my points there. Take time to read it and take time to reply with good argument why you think your points are better than mine´s. You may be right but you aren´t giving me good reasons to think that.
And please note that i´m not saying you should limp everytime. Actually i think i fold more often than i limp being SB.
 
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DESSERTLADY

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JL,

I think you,Twizzy and FP all made great points. I am not much of a numbers gal so I can't say I understand all the Neg/pos EV stuff really.

I tried playing this way today when I was at Jetset at the tourney that I was playing before we started the sitngo. I know I was playing similiarly the way you suggested in your post and didn't know it. I thought I was trying more the way Twizzy said at the UB tournament yesterday after I had read his first post.
But I know playing this way saved me alot in chips overall in the tournament. I know I was looking at my SB stats from Jetsets stats since I don't have pokertracker myself. I know I have called alot more in the past from the SB since this thread and the conversation on UB with Twizzy.
At one point I had my SB down to like 20% or so before I got to the final table. I think I did call and raise from the SB several times over the course of almost 3 hours. With decent SB hands. J9suited comes to mind, several suited connectors and non suited also. small PPs worked but if I didn't flop a set I let go of it if someone bet it. If the flop hit fine, if not fine. If the betting didn't get out of control depending on my cards, community and the players I might have seen the turn and maybe the river with them. I didn't just call any two cards out of the SB and I didn't call too many raises from that position either.

Again I am not a numbers gal or a pockertracker. Sometimes I just go on gut feeling and I know how my BBs can look half the time (very very lousy) SO why can't others look be as bad as I have seen? LOL

I got to the final table on this one and placed 5th out of 106 players.
 
Ima6T4

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In my opinion, unless it's late in the tourney and the blinds are becoming sizable, I don't play the sb much different than any other hand, except for the fact that it is a powerful raise position pre flop. If everyone is playing tight, I'll try a limp in from time to time in just about any position just to throw a false trail on my playing habits. I have a lot of respect for the fact that you hate to just donate money for a peek, and I agree that those extra chips come in handy if you didn't waste them, but I feel it's important to my game to mix up my play and try not to be too predictable.
 
twizzybop

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LOL I found it :).. makes for an interesting read as well. :)
 
JoeySea

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I'm going to give my piece on this small blinds issue :

As already pointed out in this thread, alot of the new players have the mentality of, "Man I already put in my SB, I may as well stay in! I might flop top pair!" This mistake is made so often it is painful to watch...and people lose a tonne of money due to this! General rule of thumb is to either fold your hand or raise if you think you have the best hand. Calling is pointless, you give everyone a chance to look at the flop and to make hands. Why not raise if you have a strong hand and force out those weak hands to ensure they do not have a change of making hands? If you dont have a hand capable of accomplishing this..fold your hand. Simple rule of thumb but will save you huge cash.! ;)
 
Four Dogs

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JoeySea said:
I'm going to give my piece on this small blinds issue :

As already pointed out in this thread, alot of the new players have the mentality of, "Man I already put in my SB, I may as well stay in! I might flop top pair!" This mistake is made so often it is painful to watch...and people lose a tonne of money due to this!
Some people do lose alot like this, but they probably also lose in similar non SB situations. I think there's room for debate here. When playing OP you always must consider the pot odds, the number of players behind you, and thier aggressiveness. Most people are disciplined enough to throw away poor hands from the BB after checking, the difference between the BB and SB is mostly psychological. Because you've voluntarily put money into the pot, you're more likely to want to play out the hand. This is the mistake. A disciplined and experienced player knows how to take advantage of their favorable pot odds by showing aggression in favorable situations, and folding, or slowing down in unfavorable ones.
 
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