PokerStars Zoom Hand #202738429534: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2019/07/28 1:26:27 CET [2019/07/27 19:26:27 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: timidokid ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Kovchyk_V ($3.48 in chips)
Seat 3: Ups I Do It ($1.17 in chips)
Seat 4: Kilobaks ($2.03 in chips)
Seat 5: TO_brown_boy ($1.88 in chips)
Seat 6: leedsrounder ($2 in chips)
Kovchyk_V: posts small blind $0.01
Ups I Do It: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ups I Do It [Kd Ac]
Kilobaks: folds
TO_brown_boy: folds
leedsrounder: raises $0.03 to $0.05
timidokid: folds
Kovchyk_V: folds
Ups I Do It: raises $0.11 to $0.16
leedsrounder: calls $0.11
*** FLOP *** [Kh 2h 7s]
Ups I Do It: bets $0.22
leedsrounder: raises $1.62 to $1.84 and is all-in
Ups I Do It: calls $0.79 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.83) returned to leedsrounder
*** TURN *** [Kh 2h 7s] 9♦
*** RIVER *** [Kh 2h 7s 9d] 3♣
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ups I Do It: shows [Kd Ac] (a pair of Kings)
leedsrounder: shows [7d 7h] (three of a kind, Sevens)
leedsrounder collected $2.27 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $2.35 | Rake $0.08
Board [Kh 2h 7s 9d 3c]
Seat 1: timidokid (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Kovchyk_V (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Ups I Do It (big blind) showed [Kd Ac] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 4: Kilobaks folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TO_brown_boy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: leedsrounder showed [7d 7h] and won ($2.27) with three of a kind, Sevens

when you bet and he shoves you like that on flop there’s three guesses on his hand you should have.

1.He’s shoving on a flush draw(though I see most call to river than shove if they hit)

2. He has two pair which of course is better than your one.

3. He has a set and once again beats you

You betting tells him you probably have something so to bluff shove would be stupid, though that’s not to say it doesn’t happen.


While it can be hard to get away from top pair-top kicker, you have to remember you only have one pair. Many cards can beat you including 2-7(two pair).

Over a dollar you probably think you should call because “it’s just a dollar” but if this was a bigger cash game where his shove was say $500 I think it would be a lot easier to get away from this hand. You would atleast consider it more.

So maybe when you play the cash game imagine if these were higher stakes and ask yourself if you would still call.

Consider pot odds when you make these plays because based on pot odds this would be a total fold.

I probably sound like a bitch now, but why are you starting this hand with $1,17 in chips? Do you have a special 60 BB strategy, that you want to work on, or did you just lose some pots and forgot to turn auto top-up on? Its not going to make your life easier to constantly have to adjust to changing stack sizes, and by not always starting with at least 100 BB you limit the amount of money, you can win from bad players.

Preflop 3-bet obviously fine but out of position I like to go bigger especially against a small open. 20c or 4X would be totally fine here. With your sizing you are giving him great odds and position on you. Give him a legit reason to fold instead. If you want to use this small sizing exploitatively at Zoom, do it with KK and AA not AK. AK miss the flop 2/3 of the time, so its really totally fine to just pick it up with a 3-bet.

As played not loving, that he raised, but no way we can fold here especially starting with only 60BB. He could be doing this with a flushdraw, KQ or some silly nonsense, and there are no logical 2 pair, we are behind to on this board. Its just a standard cooler, and coolers dont matter. Sooner or later, against him or someone else, you have the set, they have the top pair, and they also go broke to you.

Originally Posted by Boston10111

While it can be hard to get away from top pair-top kicker, you have to remember you only have one pair. Many cards can beat you including 2-7(two pair).

If he is opening and then calling a 3-bet with 72, K7 or K2, then he have a ton of other hands as well, that has missed this board completely and have no other way to win than to go on a wild bluff. Realistically though those hands are not in his range, so we only lose to 22 and 77 and maybe once in a blue moon a slowplayed KK or AA.


We are calling 79c to win 2,34$, meaning we need to win 34% of the time to break even. This is clearly a call, unless we have like the most sick read on the Villain, which at Zoom we typically dont.

well well well...Boston says it's a total fold and Fundiver says call and don't fuss if you lose...and both display sound (to me) reasoning, lots to think about here. Thank you for the question and the answers...this is just what makes our forum so amazing

Originally Posted by gon4iypes

well well well...Boston says it's a total fold and Fundiver says call and don't fuss if you lose...and both display sound (to me) reasoning, lots to think about here. Thank you for the question and the answers...this is just what makes our forum so amazing

I am certainly not saying, that TPTK is always a stack off, but when the board is spread out like this, and the stack to pot ratio on the flop is 3 (0,33 in the pot and 1$ left behind), then it is. If you fold in these situations, you will be completely run over, and especially at 2NL you do see crazy players go all in on the flop with all sorts of nonsense like K8 or A2.

When would I get away from this? Well maybe if Villain had just called, and turn was like Qh. Now the flush got there, and KQ got there, so what do we even beat, that he called us with on the flop, not much.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

We are calling 79c to win 2,34$, meaning we need to win 34% of the time to break even. This is clearly a call, unless we have like the most sick read on the Villain, which at Zoom we typically dont.

Maybe I’m calculating this wrong but the pot is $1.55 before you put in the .79 cent call for the shove. So you are paying .79 cents to win $1.55 (not $2.34) meaning you need to win closer to 50 (more like 51 or 52% ) percent of the time to break even and the shove tells you you are probably behind. you need to also consider the odds of winning the hand. You don’t have many outs to improve if you think about it.

If they have a set you hitting trips would give them a full house. If they are shoving on a flush draw they have more outs than you do to win.

Needing to win 50% of the time to break even is literally tossing a coin in this situation and if you don’t win the coin toss enough now you are taking a loss overall.

Don’t get me wrong not saying I haven’t called in these situations, but the more I think about it ya the odds are against you and should be a fold still.

Pot odds isn’t the only thing to calculate. You need to calculate yours outs to improve and you don’t have many.

Originally Posted by Boston10111

Maybe I’m calculating this wrong but the pot is $1.55 before you put in the .79 cent call for the shove. So you are paying .79 cents to win $1.55 (not $2.34) meaning you need to win closer to 50 (more like 51 or 52% ) percent of the time to break even and the shove tells you you are probably behind.

If you win, you also get your .79 cents back, and therefore you only need to win it 34% of the time. This is kind of important to understand especially for river situations, where even against a huge overbet, you never need to be good more than 50% of the time, so its not as bad, as it might look.

Originally Posted by Boston10111

If they have a set you hitting trips would give them a full house. If they are shoving on a flush draw they have more outs than you do to win.

This is true, and therefore you cannot just count combos and say, that if they have 3 combos of the flushdraw and 6 combos of sets, you are good to go. If you are only ahead of draws, then they need more like 6 or 7 combos of those to buff out the 6 set combos. If you can also add some stupidly overplayed KQ, or anything similar, then your equity shoots to the moon though, and folding becomes really really bad.

I think it depends on your stack size at the table. I don't know how the second stack at a table calls with AK against the biggest stack.

Easy call. Unlucky. The only hands that beat you are 77 and 22.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

If you win, you also get your .79 cents back, and therefore you only need to win it 34% of the time. This is kind of important to understand especially for river situations, where even against a huge overbet, you never need to be good more than 50% of the time, so its not as bad, as it might look.

Ok ya I was looking at the pot odds wrong then. Ya with 34% it is more of a call then. There is the possibility of Kx in his hand as well and he’s shoving with a small bet relative to what’s already on the table.

Though a fold could be better in situations where you do have information and understand if he’s super tight or not.

therefore, with AK can not pull. and before the flop go to all in. so as not to spoil your mood !!!

Nothing to add here.Just want to say that this is such a great discussion and a lot of great considerations raised in the dialogue between Boston and Fundiver.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

I am certainly not saying, that TPTK is always a stack off, but when the board is spread out like this, and the stack to pot ratio on the flop is 3 (0,33 in the pot and 1$ left behind), then it is. If you fold in these situations, you will be completely run over, and especially at 2NL you do see crazy players go all in on the flop with all sorts of nonsense like K8 or A2.

When would I get away from this? Well maybe if Villain had just called, and turn was like Qh. Now the flush got there, and KQ got there, so what do we even beat, that he called us with on the flop, not much.

Originally Posted by Boston10111

Maybe I’m calculating this wrong but the pot is $1.55 before you put in the .79 cent call for the shove. So you are paying .79 cents to win $1.55 (not $2.34) meaning you need to win closer to 50 (more like 51 or 52% ) percent of the time to break even and the shove tells you you are probably behind. you need to also consider the odds of winning the hand. You don’t have many outs to improve if you think about it.

If they have a set you hitting trips would give them a full house. If they are shoving on a flush draw they have more outs than you do to win.

Needing to win 50% of the time to break even is literally tossing a coin in this situation and if you don’t win the coin toss enough now you are taking a loss overall.

Don’t get me wrong not saying I haven’t called in these situations, but the more I think about it ya the odds are against you and should be a fold still.

Pot odds isn’t the only thing to calculate. You need to calculate yours outs to improve and you don’t have many.

Originally Posted by nameless1537

Nothing to add here.Just want to say that this is such a great discussion and a lot of great considerations raised in the dialogue between Boston and Fundiver.

AMEN!!!

When players in small games like yours raise 8x your bet, you must know he's got it. Your "one pair hand" not going to make it. They always got a big made hand when they bet so big.

After some big lost with AK like this, you will find it's easier to get away

Larger pre, get some value. Go at least 18 cents vs 2,5x, personally id go 20-22cents here.
On the flop id make a range bet in these stakes. 30-50% is fine along with checking as well.
On the turn with specifically this hand bet rather big - 60-80%.


Overall nothing you can do, however it seems like in the long run you would miss quite a lot of value.


EDIT*** Didnt realize he jammed right away, i think given your sizing and player pool tendencies i think id make an extremely exploitable fold, as you beat mainly weaker Kx. I doubt he would play flush draws this way.


Also considering you stack you extremely comfortable betting half or so on the turn and jamming the river and still get all the money in. Good luck in future grinds!

Originally Posted by feisas7991

EDIT*** Didnt realize he jammed right away, i think given your sizing and player pool tendencies i think id make an extremely exploitable fold, as you beat mainly weaker Kx. I doubt he would play flush draws this way.

But even so there are way more combos of weaker KX than sets, especially when we 3-bet small out of position. Sets are only 6 combos (KK would 4-bet), but he can have 8KQ, 8KJ etc. And maybe he just call AK, which give him another 6 combos, we split with.

Then you can say, maybe he dont always jam top pair, but maybe he dont always jam sets either. It kind of makes no sense to play so fast, when effective stacks are only 60BB, but he probably panicked about the flush draw. This is something, you see a lot at 2NL and 5NL.

At the end of the day I think, folding here would be a big mistake. There is just no way, you can say, that the entire 2NL player pool ONLY play sets this way. Also if he just called, which would probably be a better play, were we planning to slow down on the turn? Obviously not, so he still get our stack anyway.

Maybe consider raising bigger pre flop to create a low SPR or produce an immediate fold. You may still lose a stack when he calls and hits, but I think you may see a ton of folds, and create a "dynamic" in opponents mind so he starts calling light further in.

Or keep your raises smallish and let 1 pair hands go when faced with excessive aggression.

It is very dificult get away on this spot specially with less of 100BB, although I feel it is a Call because it is nl2 and many fishes overplay their hands.