A case for limping pre-flop.

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baudib1

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The equity math actually works out better for the multiway pot than a raised pot (assuming 5 way pot first case vs 4bb raise and one caller second). Investing 1bb with ~35% equity in a 5bb pot is much better than investing 4bb with ~52% equity in a 9.5bb pot. It's more bang for your buck in relative terms - .75bb/1bb invested in the first case and .24bb/1bb in the second.

Not necessarily. You have to think about it in practical terms. Let's say you limp AK in a 5-way pot vs. 2 top 30% hands and two hands in the blinds. You have an unpaired hand and no initiative, the pots you win vs., say, Ax or Kx are going to be smaller because it's limped, and you're going to fold the best hand a lot of times when, say, 97s bluffs you off a T82 board.

Compare that to the times when you have initiative and have represented strength...you will win bigger pots vs. Kx/Ax and win with the worst hand on occasion when you get 77 to fold on a JTx board.
 
LuckyChippy

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Limping is teh sucks.

There's not much more to be said for it. You can pretty much always come up with a better line except when lots of people have limped before you and I play 6-max so it doesn't happen too much.

Also it amazes me how often people say that you can't win/it's very hard to win with small PP's if you don't flop a set. Playing them in position for a raise gives you every opportunity to outplay your opponents post-flop. Open limping gives you literally zero chance. why do that yourself?
 
Stu_Ungar

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The equity math actually works out better for the multiway pot than a raised pot (assuming 5 way pot first case vs 4bb raise and one caller second). Investing 1bb with ~35% equity in a 5bb pot is much better than investing 4bb with ~52% equity in a 9.5bb pot. It's more bang for your buck in relative terms - .75bb/1bb invested in the first case and .24bb/1bb in the second.

The equity is higher in a MW pot if you are allin preflop.

However postflop people do not continue in MW pots with nothing, in fact the strength of a hand at SD in a MW pot is usually higher than in a HU pot.

So whilst you are in a favourable position pre-flop, post-flop you will find that if you hit a hand in a MW limped pot with a 'speculative hand' and you get action, you are not in good shape.

People are entering these pots with the intention of giving up if they miss as they are cheap, so hitting your hand rarely leads to a big payoff. However should you hit your hand and get action, then someone else has also hit a hand and whilst you have a big hand you do not have the 'upper end' of big hands because virtually all hands that would have mead that kind of hand would have been raised preflop.

When you raise preflop you alter most of this. You push out many weak hands that hit hands that are hard to spot.

You gain initiative, its a lot easier to push someone off a small made hand with a c-bet than a bet out of nowhere.

Your raise preflop may also take the pot down there and then.

Your winrate is also higher when you raise rather than limp, look at your own database. Filter by pots where you are the PFR vs limpers and compare it to where you call vs limpers. Which has the bigger winrate? Should you therefore be doing more of whatever is actualy winning money rather than trying in vain to reinvent the wheel?
 
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chattin35

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Not necessarily. You have to think about it in practical terms. Let's say you limp AK in a 5-way pot vs. 2 top 30% hands and two hands in the blinds. You have an unpaired hand and no initiative, the pots you win vs., say, Ax or Kx are going to be smaller because it's limped, and you're going to fold the best hand a lot of times when, say, 97s bluffs you off a T82 board.

Compare that to the times when you have initiative and have represented strength...you will win bigger pots vs. Kx/Ax and win with the worst hand on occasion when you get 77 to fold on a JTx board.

The point I'm trying to make is that those Ax Kx hands will likely fold preflop to a raise but they stay in and call a couple streets vs a limp when they hit top pair/medium kicker. Limping also keeps the pot at much better SPR's (assuming 100bbs deep) for one pair type hands w/out a raise anyway.

Plus, many TAG regular types will raise limpers with hands that they won't call a raise with. A limp/call is a way to get money in the pot in a dominating position vs these types of people as well as severely under-rep your hand. The goal should be getting money in with the best hand and playing small pots with worse hands. Limping with big aces is a backdoor way to do that as well as keep people off balance and more likely to make mistakes (and helps balance your range as well). Limp re-raise is also a good way to get a more favorable SPR with KK/AA and as a way to kind of 3bet and get more money in preflop from oop. You can also limp re-raise with 87s vs the habitual iso-raiser.

Personally, I think "initiative" is spazzy and over rated, oop. You have to do something to keep your hand from being played face up. I'll call/call/bet in position on the 10 high flop vs villian's AK/AQ with my 55 all day long. Heck, you can even do that on a king high flop and see if villian really wants to play for his stack with TPTK.

Obviously, don't do this against fish. I'm offering a different strategy to keep the regs off balance.
 
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baudib1

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I'll call/call/bet in position on the 10 high flop vs villian's AK/AQ with my 55 all day long. Heck, you can even do that on a king high flop and see if villian really wants to play for his stack with TPTK.

nice level 0 thinking. "omg i put u on teh AK, I callz."
 
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chattin35

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People are entering these pots with the intention of giving up if they miss as they are cheap, so hitting your hand rarely leads to a big payoff.

Wouldn't this logic make an argument in favor of limping and then betting to steal limped pots (which is easier than you'd think). And in the process, risk less money in proportion to the pot vs a raise/cbet?

Yeah, there is a better chance that someone hit big, but leading out into a 5 way pot looks very strong and you can easily get away from it for less than the price of a raise/cbet should you encounter real resistance. I think you'll also find that if you follow through, people will use the above logic and fold medium/low strength hands to a double/tripple barrel (which still costs you about the same as a raise/cbet).
 
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chattin35

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nice level 0 thinking. "omg i put u on teh AK, I callz."

Well, when you apply the percentage of the times he has an overpair, and equity vs his overall range, you're often good in that situation with 55. Especially, when you factor in FE.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Wouldn't this logic make an argument in favor of limping and then betting to steal limped pots (which is easier than you'd think). And in the process, risk less money in proportion to the pot vs a raise/cbet?

Yeah, there is a better chance that someone hit big, but leading out into a 5 way pot looks very strong and you can easily get away from it for less than the price of a raise/cbet should you encounter real resistance. I think you'll also find that if you follow through, people will use the above logic and fold medium/low strength hands to a double/tripple barrel (which still costs you about the same as a raise/cbet).


The more people see a flop the less likely a bluff works. Simply look at your own stats in HEM to confirm this.

Also a bet in a MW pot will not cost less than a raise preflop because the bet in the MW pot will need to be bigger as villians who limp also tend to chase draws or have difficulty in folding their slow-played AT or whatever other ridiculous plan they have.
 
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WiZZiM

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From Ed Miller's SSNL:
"an aggressive blind stealing strategy can improve a player's overall winrate by 1.5bb/100"

You may not believe that the blinds are worth much in cash games but one of the most respected poker authors today estimates stealing the blinds to be worth ~25% of what people consider a solid WR.

I love limpers. They limp, I isoraise, and they give up like 70% of the time postflop. So yes, limping can be profitable, just not for the limper.


+1, but i like to iso raise the isoraisers too :p
 
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ComplexPlaya

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Your winrate is also higher when you raise rather than limp, look at your own database. Filter by pots where you are the PFR vs limpers and compare it to where you call vs limpers. Which has the bigger winrate?

Many thanks for that, you made me look in my PT3 and see I'm just a bit in the red with cold calling and with open limping, while nicely green with raise first in.

More importantly, I thought about checking my total with calling raises and it is very very red. Discovered THE major leak I guess...would win much more just by folding or 3-betting hands other people raise while never calling.

Not that I'll do just that, but I guess I'll call with much more selective hands. Is generally calling raises just with the hands I would PFR myself in the previous position a good idea do you think? (6-max)

About this limping thing...I used to wonder like you did chattin. And if you're not willing to listen to people's advice you'll always see it your way, good or bad. Like Stu said, just look at your own statistics for open limping or cold calling vs raise first in, see the difference.

If you do better with limping @ the place/stakes you play sure stick to it but I have a feeling you'll be surprised...

Now that I think of it, a good situation for open limping in EP/MP would be a very aggro player (and good) behind you that has everyone running scared stealing their chips, then you 3-bet him a few times, or raise his cbets etc. to put him back in his place.
 
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BenLZ

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I'll sometimes limp if I'm playing FR and I'm in EP with a pocket pair and the table hasn't been active much.

I never open limp in 6 max, but I'll call if there's been like 2 other callers and I have like a hand that plays well multi-way like KTs or QJs...T9s.
 
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