4 bet sizing to large 3bet squeeze.

[Station_Master]

I opened UTG at a 9 handed table (25NL) using my standard open size of 2.4x. Two fishy players with high vpips cold called to my left. Then a good reg 3 bet squeezes to 14bb from the HJ. We were both 100bb deep.

The reg doesnt have an especially high 3bet %, but his squeeze % was 5% and I expected him to be a bit wider than normal given the dead money.

It folds back to me and I want to 4bet but the question is to what size? I would typically make it 2.8x oop (which would be 39bb) but then this means I commit more than 1/3rd of my stack preflop. In game I mull it over but couldn't find a size I like, it seems like I need to shove, fold or call. If I make it say 33bb do you think we get any folds given the amazing pot odds villain would be getting IP? There is 22.7bb in the pot so he would be calling 19 for a pot of 60.7.

What sizing would you use? As I say in game I felt like all-in was the only viable size. Looking back perhaps 35bb would be ok as it looks so strong and our bluffs could reluctantly fold v a shove. Thoughts please?

Anyway my hand was AKo. Obviously calling oop and letting the fish in was not attractive, I didnt want to 4bet small and price villain in, so it was really between shove and fold. I quite like shove but there is not quite enough money in the pot and my big concern was one of the fish would have something like 77 and say to themselves "well I'm not folding a pair!" I cant remember the fishes' exact stack sizes, they weren't full but it was at least 75bb. In the end I folded . How would you have approached the spot and played it?

I really like villains play btw I would normally have made it 5x in this spot to 12bb but those extra 2bb really make a difference and I am definitely going to use the larger size in future!

Just to add I am trying to play reasonably balanced, so ideally finding the one size I would use, but I think its fine to tweak the size subtly for hand strength.

 

[Aballinamion]

I opened UTG at a 9 handed table (25NL) using my standard open size of 2.4x. Two fishy players with high vpips cold called to my left. Then a good reg 3 bet squeezes to 14bb from the HJ. We were both 100bb deep.

The reg doesnt have an especially high 3bet %, but his squeeze % was 5% and I expected him to be a bit wider than normal given the dead money.

It folds back to me and I want to 4bet but the question is to what size? I would typically make it 2.8x oop (which would be 39bb) but then this means I commit more than 1/3rd of my stack preflop. In game I mull it over but couldn't find a size I like, it seems like I need to shove, fold or call. If I make it say 33bb do you think we get any folds given the amazing pot odds villain would be getting IP? There is 22.7bb in the pot so he would be calling 19 for a pot of 60.7.

What sizing would you use? As I say in game I felt like all-in was the only viable size. Looking back perhaps 35bb would be ok as it looks so strong and our bluffs could reluctantly fold v a shove. Thoughts please?

Anyway my hand was AKo. Obviously calling oop and letting the fish in was not attractive, I didnt want to 4bet small and price villain in, so it was really between shove and fold. I quite like shove but there is not quite enough money in the pot and my big concern was one of the fish would have something like 77 and say to themselves "well I'm not folding a pair!" I cant remember the fishes' exact stack sizes, they weren't full but it was at least 75bb. In the end I folded . How would you have approached the spot and played it?

I really like villains play btw I would normally have made it 5x in this spot to 12bb but those extra 2bb really make a difference and I am definitely going to use the larger size in future!

Very hard situation you got yourself in, and in a scenario as this you described, having Villain with a low 3-bet percentage and on the top of that, polarizing preflop, I would fold more than jamming preflop.
The problem of calling is not only the SPR that commits more than 30% of our whole stack preflop, there are still the fishes who might try to get fancy and cold call your all-in just for fun, and somehow the fishes in the middle of the way would have ludicrous odds to be calling if you flat villain’s polarized squeeze and good odds to be calling your jam, already thinking that if one of the fishes call in the middle of the road, villain will call almost a 100% of times, because now he has to put a 100 BB in order to win 300 BB or even 400 BB if both fishes elect to go!
You cannot 4-bet cheap under the risk of giving a perfect spot for the fishes to call IP. You cannot flat villain’s squeeze for the same reason...
Considering it is a polarized 3-bet, most of times this is a sign Villain is not a GTO player and you would be chopping versus JJ+ and AQs+ or QQ+ most of times.
It’s a choice of your own whether you go all-in or whether you fold.
If I was wearing your shoes I would have folded 70% of times and pushed 30% of times.
We should have more info about villain, but considering the fact it polarized that much, I can assume that most of times he’d be playing for massive value (I’m also considering Hero as a regular with a solid table image, and if villain is aware of it and still polarizes, it is a good spot to run away from big variance).
Thanks for sharing your ideas and posting this hard situation that made me think for a long time.
P.S: although villain has a 5% squeeze preflop, which might seem a huge amount, I don’t think you have a sample of more than 100 hands played versus villain. HUD stats can be very tricky for small amounts of hands played, and it happens from time to time that either us or villain to get a sequence of good hands in a roll, and this will change our HUD stats for the moment, but we ought look to the great picture.

 

[Station_Master]

I probably have 1500 hands or so on villain. But anyway as it's such a good squeeze spot I expect him to be wider than normal, possibly AQ+, TT+, AJs, ATs and A5s maybe even wider. I wasnt convinced he was that polarised as he will expect at least one of the fish to call anyway. I felt like I would be in good shape v villains range, but the fish together with the awkward sizing made it tricky.

Actually multiple calls would probably be good, e.g. if 88 and QQ calls then I will have over 33% pot odds for sure. But on the other hand it could be 99 and AK for example and then not so good. The other problem is the fish or villain probably hold at least one of my 6 outs if I get it in v a pair.

 

[Aballinamion]

Very hard situation you got yourself in, and in a scenario as this you described, having Villain with a low 3-bet percentage and on the top of that, polarizing preflop, I would fold more than jamming preflop.
The problem of calling is not only the SPR that commits more than 30% of our whole stack preflop, there are still the fishes who might try to get fancy and cold call your all-in just for fun, and somehow the fishes in the middle of the way would have ludicrous odds to be calling if you flat villain’s polarized squeeze and good odds to be calling your jam, already thinking that if one of the fishes call in the middle of the road, villain will call almost a 100% of times, because now he has to put a 100 BB in order to win 300 BB or even 400 BB if both fishes elect to go!
You cannot 4-bet cheap under the risk of giving a perfect spot for the fishes to call IP. You cannot flat villain’s squeeze for the same reason...
Considering it is a polarized 3-bet, most of times this is a sign Villain is not a GTO player and you would be chopping versus JJ+ and AQs+ or QQ+ most of times.
It’s a choice of your own whether you go all-in or whether you fold.
If I was wearing your shoes I would have folded 70% of times and pushed 30% of times.
We should have more info about villain, but considering the fact it polarized that much, I can assume that most of times he’d be playing for massive value (I’m also considering Hero as a regular with a solid table image, and if villain is aware of it and still polarizes, it is a good spot to run away from big variance).
Thanks for sharing your ideas and posting this hard situation that made me think for a long time.

I probably have 1500 hands or so on villain. But anyway as it's such a good squeeze spot I expect him to be wider than normal, possibly AQ+, TT+, AJs, ATs and A5s maybe even wider. I wasnt convinced he was that polarised as he will expect at least one of the fish to call anyway. I felt like I would be in good shape v villains range, but the fish together with the awkward sizing made it tricky.

Actually multiple calls would probably be good, e.g. if 88 and QQ calls then I will have over 33% pot odds for sure. But on the other hand it could be 99 and AK for example and then not so good. The other problem is the fish or villain probably hold at least one of my 6 outs if I get it in v a pair.

Oh thanks for your feedback mate! In this case the scenario changes quite a bit. If you have played over 1 thousands hands versus this villain and it put ups a squeeze like this most certainly we are going to shove more often than folding.
5% is a bunch of hands, if villain is balanced we must expect bluffs at least 2.5% of times and values 2.5% of times.
I assumed you had a small sample because you haven’t informed how much hands you have played versus this villain.
Considering all these facts I would assume you should’ve shoved simply for lack of options. Fishes could call you to setmine or seek their draws if you call the squeeze or 4-bet a small value. And if they’d have called your push, good luck for you 😄

 

[Rockyfour]

Against specifically a squeeze I would simplify and always raise 75% pot if I wanted to 4-bet. Flatting AK(o) is good as well, it's basically one of your traps against their AQ/AJs even KQ(s). I think the suited variants of AK is better for a 4-bet so you have the problem of having to balance with too many bluff hands.

 

[rastapapolos]

IMO there are a couple of things to consider before choosing to 4bet.
First thing is your image or how villain perceives you, if you have around 1.5K hands on villain, so does he. Your 4betting % is important. If you have a low 4bet % (less than 5%) and villain is wide, your 4bet will shut down the action and vice versa.
Second thing is your equity, you have around 46% vs a range of 5% (88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo), so 4betting and getting yourself commited isn't a +EV spot imo.
Here I'm assuming that the 2 fish won't join the action. But still active in the hand they complicated somehow the situation.
With that being said personally I'm choosing the call option keeping my range wide.

 

[Aballinamion]

IMO there are a couple of things to consider before choosing to 4bet.
First thing is your image or how villain perceives you, if you have around 1.5K hands on villain, so does he. Your 4betting % is important. If you have a low 4bet % (less than 5%) and villain is wide, your 4bet will shut down the action and vice versa.
Second thing is your equity, you have around 46% vs a range of 5% (88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo), so 4betting and getting yourself commited isn't a +EV spot imo.
Here I'm assuming that the 2 fish won't join the action. But still active in the hand they complicated somehow the situation.
With that being said personally I'm choosing the call option keeping my range wide.

Hi mate, thanks for your post. Are you saying that villain’s squeeze range could be 88+ AJs+, KQs, AKo, right? In this sense should we consider 88+ as the part of his values hands that squeeze preflop and AJs+, KQs and AKo as the part of villain’s bluffs?

 

[makisaa]

With an AKo, your are holding a strong couple of cards, at a difficult position, and so I think it is only for a typical 3bb rise. You could try to call the 14bb, but it was a risky decision. Folding was not so bad decision.

 

[Igor Popadyk]

against a regular player, I think you should shove and win a coin, if you don’t want to play a coin, then fold, but there is a possibility that he folded part of his range

 

[Station_Master]

Against specifically a squeeze I would simplify and always raise 75% pot if I wanted to 4-bet. Flatting AK(o) is good as well, it's basically one of your traps against their AQ/AJs even KQ(s). I think the suited variants of AK is better for a 4-bet so you have the problem of having to balance with too many bluff hands.

I think that makes it about 38bb which is similar to my default 2.8x size I mentioned. The problem is committing that much of the stack makes me pot committed v a shove. I wasnt a huge fan of call given it will probably go multiway, I'll be oop and I will miss the flop alot.

To my mind in game the best two plays were fold or shove and I am still not convinced on the alternatives.

 

[Station_Master]

IMO there are a couple of things to consider before choosing to 4bet.
First thing is your image or how villain perceives you, if you have around 1.5K hands on villain, so does he. Your 4betting % is important. If you have a low 4bet % (less than 5%) and villain is wide, your 4bet will shut down the action and vice versa.
Second thing is your equity, you have around 46% vs a range of 5% (88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo), so 4betting and getting yourself commited isn't a +EV spot imo.
Here I'm assuming that the 2 fish won't join the action. But still active in the hand they complicated somehow the situation.
With that being said personally I'm choosing the call option keeping my range wide.

Good point, my 4bet % is not crazy, he might have seen the odd bluff but I would expect alot of folds. Still, we need alot of folds as the pot is only 22bb versus a more typical 33bb or so when considering a heads up 5bet shove.

My issue was the fish as I assumed if they had a pair they would call off a shove and I would be a dog. However, off table I can see I would probably have the correct 44% equity or so but it would still only be 0EV. If I called the 3bet they would be bound to come along.

 

[Station_Master]

Oh thanks for your feedback mate! In this case the scenario changes quite a bit. If you have played over 1 thousands hands versus this villain and it put ups a squeeze like this most certainly we are going to shove more often than folding.
5% is a bunch of hands, if villain is balanced we must expect bluffs at least 2.5% of times and values 2.5% of times.
I assumed you had a small sample because you haven’t informed how much hands you have played versus this villain.
Considering all these facts I would assume you should’ve shoved simply for lack of options. Fishes could call you to setmine or seek their draws if you call the squeeze or 4-bet a small value. And if they’d have called your push, good luck for you 😄

I think in the end you are right shove is the best play. I dont think its massively winning, the EV is probably only 2 or 3bb for a ton of variance.

The reason I am coming round to this is that sometimes the fish will call off AQ or some random nonsense . I didn't think of that in game but I got AK in for stacks twice yesterday v fish against AQo and ATs (losing both time )

 

[Station_Master]

Follow up question what sizing do I use with AA, KK or QQ?! The exploitative small 4bet?

 

[Aballinamion]

Follow up question what sizing do I use with AA, KK or QQ?! The exploitative small 4bet?

I would like to answer your question but my connection is a little weird now.

 

[Aballinamion]

Follow up question what sizing do I use with AA, KK or QQ?! The exploitative small 4bet?

I like to use the same sizing either for raising, 3-bet of 4-bet. 4-bet I like to go for 2.2x or 2.4x most of times with all of my 4-bet range which includes values and semi-bluffs.
Of course I would vary this sizing according to my opponent, if I’m facing some known whale I would increase a bit more or even make a 3x 4-bet.
Is that what you were asking?

 

[Station_Master]

I like to use the same sizing either for raising, 3-bet of 4-bet. 4-bet I like to go for 2.2x or 2.4x most of times with all of my 4-bet range which includes values and semi-bluffs.
Of course I would vary this sizing according to my opponent, if I’m facing some known whale I would increase a bit more or even make a 3x 4-bet.
Is that what you were asking?

Thanks but not really, I mean in the exact same spot. If we are agreed we shove AK, do we also shove AA or do we take a different size, e.g. to 33bb

 

[Aballinamion]

I think in the end you are right shove is the best play. I dont think its massively winning, the EV is probably only 2 or 3bb for a ton of variance.

The reason I am coming round to this is that sometimes the fish will call off AQ or some random nonsense . I didn't think of that in game but I got AK in for stacks twice yesterday v fish against AQo and ATs (losing both time )

I avoid jamming preflop as much as I can, and I fold AK postflop quite a few chunk of times. In my personal gameplay I don’t think it is profitable in the long run to be jamming preflop.
To me I like to have edge over my opponents, and when I jam preflop the things I studied and know are useless. Not that I never do it, or would never do it, but as long as I can avoid it, why not?
We have advantage over fishes because they are clueless and obvious on the postflop tricks, GTO, pot control, etc
You said you played over 1500 versus this villain, would you mind and be kind to answer, if you’re willing to, if you play only NLHE 25 or another stakes higher or lower?
And if I’m not asking too much, for how long have you been playing NLHE 25? I think that if you have played 1500 hands versus one single player that could imply that you have played over than 1 million hands?
Thanks and sorry for my curiosity.

 

[Aballinamion]

Thanks but not really, I mean in the exact same spot. If we are agreed we shove AK, do we also shove AA or do we take a different size, e.g. to 33bb

I’m afraid we are going more with AKs than AKo, and using the same sizing unless you have a special reason or spot that you could increase it.

 

[Tigergamer111]

Hi Station_Master, why not open with 2bb sizing? A10c, AB-ADo and even wider hands will 3bet you more often. 44-99 hands will continue to call preflop as well. Against a size 2.4 people defend narrower and 3bet a more polar (nuts) range. Opening 2bb, getting two calls, the reg would 3bet 10-11bb, the pot after two folds would be 17-18bb. This is where you have more 3-betting options, it will be enough to bet 24-26bb, and most of the squeeze range will go to the fold (A10s, AB-ADo, KDS). If he bets allin, easy fold, if he calls, then the bet is 24-28% on the flop (without hitting), and more WHEN hitting the flop. In a 2bb open, many aggressive players will fold and 3bet wider. And with UTG open 2.4 it looks scary) And so the thoughts are correct

 

[BOXING71]

you scare me! I knew that you all play well. But sometimes I read your discussions and understand that I'm not just a fish, something worse. And it worries me. Is it possible to learn this? How do you know all this?

 

[Aballinamion]

you scare me! I knew that you all play well. But sometimes I read your discussions and understand that I'm not just a fish, something worse. And it worries me. Is it possible to learn this? How do you know all this?

Hello friend how do you do? Hopefully fine, well you are quite simple and humble but we know all of these not because we are better than you, it’s just because we have been studying poker for a very long time.
I cannot speak for others, but I have been studying for over 10 years and I cannot say that I know everything.
Actually I know just a little part of poker, the only thing I feel secure to give opinions is cash games. When I risk myself to talk about other subjects, such as tournaments, I put myself in the position of a beginner.
So I am confident only to talk about NLHE Cash Games, e.g, it comes a hand that it is Fixed Limit, Pot Limit I don’t dare to state a comment.
I know the basics of all of these, including Five Card Draw, Omaha, but I won’t take a chance, what I have really studied and made a course it was no limits Cash Game.
You are wise and very soon you will be comprehending all that we say. It takes a while mate, don’t trouble yourself and don’t be in a hurry.
Have you ever heard about GTO? We talk a lot about this subject.

 

[BOXING71]

Hello friend how do you do? Hopefully fine, well you are quite simple and humble but we know all of these not because we are better than you, it’s just because we have been studying poker for a very long time.
I cannot speak for others, but I have been studying for over 10 years and I cannot say that I know everything.
Actually I know just a little part of poker, the only thing I feel secure to give opinions is cash games. When I risk myself to talk about other subjects, such as tournaments, I put myself in the position of a beginner.
So I am confident only to talk about NLHE Cash Games, e.g, it comes a hand that it is Fixed Limit, Pot Limit I don’t dare to state a comment.
I know the basics of all of these, including Five Card Draw, Omaha, but I won’t take a chance, what I have really studied and made a course it was no limits Cash Game.
You are wise and very soon you will be comprehending all that we say. It takes a while mate, don’t trouble yourself and don’t be in a hurry.
Have you ever heard about GTO? We talk a lot about this subject.

Thanks mate, you've given me some encouragement!yes I read a little and watch YouTube streams. I understand that everything takes time. I'm glad that I'm in a place where there are a lot of good players and I can read your discussions. I then look for this topic on the Internet to understand what you are talking about. Squeezing or squeezing was a new word for me. But I already read it.Thank you for supporting me, respect to all!

 

[Aballinamion]

Thanks mate, you've given me some encouragement!yes I read a little and watch YouTube streams. I understand that everything takes time. I'm glad that I'm in a place where there are a lot of good players and I can read your discussions. I then look for this topic on the Internet to understand what you are talking about. Squeezing or squeezing was a new word for me. But I already read it.Thank you for supporting me, respect to all!

My pleasure mate! If you have anything to ask don’t be shy, as I told you, I’m also through learning! You are a kind one and you will grow faster than you think!

 

[Station_Master]

Hi Station_Master, why not open with 2bb sizing? A10c, AB-ADo and even wider hands will 3bet you more often. 44-99 hands will continue to call preflop as well. Against a size 2.4 people defend narrower and 3bet a more polar (nuts) range. Opening 2bb, getting two calls, the reg would 3bet 10-11bb, the pot after two folds would be 17-18bb. This is where you have more 3-betting options, it will be enough to bet 24-26bb, and most of the squeeze range will go to the fold (A10s, AB-ADo, KDS). If he bets allin, easy fold, if he calls, then the bet is 24-28% on the flop (without hitting), and more WHEN hitting the flop. In a 2bb open, many aggressive players will fold and 3bet wider. And with UTG open 2.4 it looks scary) And so the thoughts are correct

Hi, do you mean in general or with this specific hand/from UTG? I think 2x is a bit small for a cash game, I open 2.4x from all positions except SB. This is probably.slightly smaller than average, average is 2.5x but some go 3x. I think at 2x you just invite too many calls from the blinds, but I am tempted to reduce my open size further as many top players go more like 2.25x.

Note in general with 2.4x I dont get into difficult stack size spots, it's just this specific hand.

 

[Station_Master]

I think in the end you are right shove is the best play. I dont think its massively winning, the EV is probably only 2 or 3bb for a ton of variance.

I avoid jamming preflop as much as I can, and I fold AK postflop quite a few chunk of times. In my personal gameplay I don’t think it is profitable in the long run to be jamming preflop.
To me I like to have edge over my opponents, and when I jam preflop the things I studied and know are useless. Not that I never do it, or would never do it, but as long as I can avoid it, why not?
We have advantage over fishes because they are clueless and obvious on the postflop tricks, GTO, pot control, etc
You said you played over 1500 versus this villain, would you mind and be kind to answer, if you’re willing to, if you play only NLHE 25 or another stakes higher or lower?
And if I’m not asking too much, for how long have you been playing NLHE 25? I think that if you have played 1500 hands versus one single player that could imply that you have played over than 1 million hands?
Thanks and sorry for my curiosity.

25 and 30NL are the highest I play currently, I also play 20NL, 16NL and sometime even 10NL. It depends on how good the games are. Sometimes at 25NL it can be hard to find a good table, and I move down if the action looks better. Not sure when I first started playing 25NL maybe 4 or 5 months ago , i only have about 25k hands at the stake.

I have 1k+ hands on a number of villains but not even close to 1 million hands in total, it's just that I see the same regs so often as I am multitabling and so are they and playing 9 handed tables.