300th post and a strategies article.

Chiefer

Chiefer

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for my 300th post, i though i would make it count as best i could and this article came to mind. i read this article in cardplayer magazine by Barry Tanenbaum and i thought some of the new players would find this helpful.



Failure to use the stop-and-go: The stop-and-go is a play designed to give you a small extra chance to win the pot without a showdown. To execute the play, you are out of position and call a raise before the flop with a hand with which you plan to go all in, but are certain that your opponent will call. You then push the rest of your chips in after the flop, thus giving your opponent a chance to dislike the flop and fold. If he folds, you win with no further risk. If he calls, you are no worse off than if you pushed all in before the flop. You have to hope that your hand wins.

Here is a typical scenario: In the middle of a tournament, the blinds are $400-$800 with a $100 ante. You have $5,000 left after you post the big blind. A middle-position player with $12,000 makes it $2,500 to go. Everyone folds to you, and you decide to go all in with whatever hand you hold. Note that it does not matter what cards you hold - just that you have decided to push all of your chips in.

Clearly, if you push all in here, you will get called. The pot will be $1,000 in antes, $1,200 in blinds, and the $2,500 from the raiser. Your all-in push will make it $9,700 and your opponent will have to call $3,300. At almost 3-1, there is no hand he can fold, even if he was just goofing around with his raise.

Your best play is to call the $1,700 raise, look at the flop, and then put in your $3,300. Your plan is to make this play regardless of whether you like the flop or not. You hope that your opponent does not realize that you are making this play, hates the flop, and folds his hand. If he calls, you are no worse off than if you had pushed all in earlier. You will get the same five cards on the board and will see who wins.

You can make two errors with this play. The first is pushing all in without actually looking at the board. Yes, I know that is the plan, but it helps if you pretend to look and make a decision. You do not want your opponent to realize that your all-in push was independent of both your hand and the flop, as his only real defense against the stop-and-go play is to call your push regardless of the flop, and this is sometimes tough to do.

The second error is to frighten yourself into checking and folding when you see the flop. Remember, you have no idea of whether your opponent liked the flop or not, so just because it does not suit you does not mean he will call. Think of this play as an alternative to going all in right away, not a play in which you plan to make a decision after the flop.

Let's suppose that you have 3-3 and your opponent has 8-8. If you go all in before the flop, you will be called for sure. If you call before the flop and A-K-9 happens to hit the board, there is a decent chance that your opponent will now fold. This effect is even more pronounced if your opponent has J-10 and you are planning to go all in with A-5. Again, if you make your move before the flop, he will call and your hand will have to hold up. If the flop is K-7-7, for example, and your opponent decides to fold to your post-flop push, you no longer have to worry about him hitting his hand on the next two cards and eliminating you.
 
Chiefer

Chiefer

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51 views and no reply's. is my 300th post that worthless. lol
 
heatfan03

heatfan03

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good article dont worry it isnt worthless. I like that idea especially with the pot odds situation. Sure if ur gonna go all in anyway it doesnt matter if ur opponent sees more cards because then he can see cards that will hurt him.
 
4Aces

4Aces

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Great post there chiefer77, very helpful! And congrats on your 300th!!
 
Chiefer

Chiefer

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i dug the article, it's just one of those silly little things in this game that not many people think about before pushing.
 
dj11

dj11

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Congrats on 300, 305 as I write this.

Good article, glad you passed it our way. It was good enough to stop me in my tracks as I had come to congratulate you on the 300, then the article made me forget what I was doing here.

Where would we be without chiefer?
 
ChuckTs

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Congrats on the landmark, chiefer, and I liked the article.

Basically stop n go's are a way to utilize your position (being first to bet) when stacks are short. It actually works with bigger stacks too - leading on a flop looks very strong, and more often than not your opponent has missed, and will fold. It's actually surprisingly effective - I've only started using the play the last few months and it's helped a lot.

Everybody always talks about how it's so advantageous to have position on a player, ie bet last, but that doesn't apply when short stacks are involved. Getting the chance to push first is actually an advantage since you basically get the chance to represent a hand first. If someone were to lead into you on a AKx board and you're holding 88, you really can't call. Especially if calling represents a big portion of your stack.
 
Chiefer

Chiefer

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Congrats on 300, 305 as I write this.

Good article, glad you passed it our way. It was good enough to stop me in my tracks as I had come to congratulate you on the 300, then the article made me forget what I was doing here.

Where would we be without chiefer?

thanks man, glad you liked it. the first time i read it, it kinda hit me like a brick too. i remember thinking, damn, why wasn't i doing this before.
 
Chiefer

Chiefer

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Congrats on the landmark, chiefer, and I liked the article.

Basically stop n go's are a way to utilize your position (being first to bet) when stacks are short. It actually works with bigger stacks too - leading on a flop looks very strong, and more often than not your opponent has missed, and will fold. It's actually surprisingly effective - I've only started using the play the last few months and it's helped a lot.

Everybody always talks about how it's so advantageous to have position on a player, ie bet last, but that doesn't apply when short stacks are involved. Getting the chance to push first is actually an advantage since you basically get the chance to represent a hand first. If someone were to lead into you on a AKx board and you're holding 88, you really can't call. Especially if calling represents a big portion of your stack.

it's helped me a lot too. like i said before. it's one of those tools that a smart player can put into thier arsenal to get ahead.
 
amygrantfan

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thanks for sharing the article and congrats on your 300th post. i hope i get there one day:)
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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Instead of "failure to use the stop and go" here is a "failure OF the use of a stop and go":

I called, planning to push any flop (having noted that JQ left only 900 behind, an error she herself pointed out in the chat thereafter).

pokerstars GAME #11204856943: TOURNAMENT #55486188, $5.00+$0.50 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VI (100/200) - 2007/07/29 - 18:21:19 (ET)
Table '55486188 3' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: juiceeQ (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: hott_estelle (4370 in chips)
Seat 3: Trent's Momm (4020 in chips)
Seat 7: klitkat (4775 in chips)
Seat 8: L.Schumner (3045 in chips)
Seat 9: Effexor1 (2020 in chips)
klitkat: posts small blind 100
L.Schumner: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to L.Schumner K♣ Q♣
Effexor1: folds
juiceeQ: raises 400 to 600
hott_estelle: folds
Trent's Momm: folds
klitkat: folds
L.Schumner: calls 400
*** FLOP *** 7♠ J♦ 9♥
L.Schumner: bets 900
juiceeQ: calls 900 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [7s Jd 9h] 4♥
*** RIVER *** [7s Jd 9h 4h] 7♥
L.Schumner said, "gross"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
L.Schumner: shows K♣ Q♣ (a pair of Sevens)
juiceeQ: shows A♦ K♥ (a pair of Sevens - Ace kicker)
hott_estelle said, "wheeeeee"
juiceeQ collected 3100 from pot
juiceeQ said, "lol"
klitkat said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3100 | Rake 0
Board 7♠ J♦ 9♥ 4♥ 7♥
Seat 1: juiceeQ showed [Ad Kh] and won (3100) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 2: hott_estelle folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Trent's Momm (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: klitkat (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: L.Schumner (big blind) showed [Kc Qc] and lost with a pair of Sevens
Seat 9: Effexor1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

It would have been a brillant play if:

1. I had a pair, even a low one.
2. JQ would not have made a second mistake (?) by calling here (having noticed that she should have shoved she mentally committed to putting all her chips in post flop).
 
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