3 streets of value with top pair kicker vs. flop + turn call?

ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

Visionary
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Total posts
647
Today I played a hand where I raised AJ from the button and both blinds called. The flop was a semi dry J high flop. It got checked to me and I made a half pot bet and only BB called.

I fired off another bet on a brick turn and got called again, at this point I was a bit worried I might be beat.

On the river villain minbet and I just called.

Would it have been a mistake to fire 3 streets considering I didn't suspect villain was chasing a draw? Should I even have gone for 2 streets of value?

Villain flipped over QQ. I'm surprised he didn't 3 bet, maybe because it was multiway and he figured he could take a bigger pot if somone hit the flop.

Also. Was that river bet some kind of blocker bet?

No reads on this player prior to this hand.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

Visionary
Joined
Dec 4, 2017
Total posts
834
The Leveling Wars: BTN vs BB

Today I played a hand where I raised AJ from the button and both blinds called. The flop was a semi dry J high flop. It got checked to me and I made a half pot bet and only BB called.

I fired off another bet on a brick turn and got called again, at this point I was a bit worried I might be beat.

On the river villain minbet and I just called.

Would it have been a mistake to fire 3 streets considering I didn't suspect villain was chasing a draw? Should I even have gone for 2 streets of value?

Villain flipped over QQ. I'm surprised he didn't 3 bet, maybe because it was multiway and he figured he could take a bigger pot if somone hit the flop.

Also. Was that river bet some kind of blocker bet?

No reads on this player prior to this hand.

Hi there Nick, it's me again with my boring ideias. Sorry, I will try to help you here.


Preflop:

Standart: AJ is a very strong hand to play in position versus the blinds. We could even call some 3-bets and depending of the player put up some 4-bet lights (with AJs specially).

Flop: 1/2 pot here is okay, but giving that two players called, we could go for 1/3 to 1/2 pot (we don't know what they are going to do next, or do we have postflop info?).
IMO, this is a bet for value versus the blinds cold calling ranges. We expect to be paid by worst Jacks, low and middle pocket pairs and some draws if they exist in the flop.

Turn: comes a brick and we can go by c-betting here or checking. We don't know what the hell villain had called with and we don't want to make the pot grow so much. Besides, we want this player out of position to try to bluff us with worst Jacks and anything its cold calling range might have hit/not hit.

River: Villain donks. This is a call almost 100% of times. The times you check-raise river with your TPTK, you will get folds from all the hands that are behind and get action from hands that have you beat (theoretically).

Villain:

Put a note on this guy to be a massive recreational player. Calling down 3-handed pot with QQ is preposterous! If SB folds, I see some point in calling down versus button with the ideia of trapping a lot of worse hands present in BTN's range.
However, when SB calls our odds goes down the hole and we should Squeezing/Isolating, specially the player in the BTN (you/Hero). If BTN folds it would be very nice if SB calls squeeze to play out of position.
This is the player who is lookin' down ONLY at its hole cards and making decisions.
The way was played was fine to me.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

Visionary
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Total posts
647
Hi there Nick, it's me again with my boring ideias. Sorry, I will try to help you here.


Preflop:

Standart: AJ is a very strong hand to play in position versus the blinds. We could even call some 3-bets and depending of the player put up some 4-bet lights (with AJs specially).

Flop: 1/2 pot here is okay, but giving that two players called, we could go for 1/3 to 1/2 pot (we don't know what they are going to do next, or do we have postflop info?).
IMO, this is a bet for value versus the blinds cold calling ranges. We expect to be paid by worst Jacks, low and middle pocket pairs and some draws if they exist in the flop.

Turn: comes a brick and we can go by c-betting here or checking. We don't know what the hell villain had called with and we don't want to make the pot grow so much. Besides, we want this player out of position to try to bluff us with worst Jacks and anything its cold calling range might have hit/not hit.

River: Villain donks. This is a call almost 100% of times. The times you check-raise river with your TPTK, you will get folds from all the hands that are behind and get action from hands that have you beat (theoretically).

Villain:

Put a note on this guy to be a massive recreational player. Calling down 3-handed pot with QQ is preposterous! If SB folds, I see some point in calling down versus button with the ideia of trapping a lot of worse hands present in BTN's range.
However, when SB calls our odds goes down the hole and we should Squeezing/Isolating, specially the player in the BTN (you/Hero). If BTN folds it would be very nice if SB calls squeeze to play out of position.
This is the player who is lookin' down ONLY at its hole cards and making decisions.
The way was played was fine to me.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa


Hey bud, your ideas are not boring, keep em coming. I super appreciate you dissecting these situations and providing your feedback! :)

I honestly have no idea what this villain was thinking lol. I think he thought he is more likely to win a big pot by not squeezing QQ vs 2 other players. It's either that or he is indeed a fish, hard to tell lol. People at this limit/tables tend to overfold to 3 bets.
 
C

c0rnBr34d

Visionary
Joined
May 6, 2019
Total posts
991
Again, not knowing table stakes, live / online, stack depth, or sizing on any street except river min bet clouds things a lot. But in general I would go for 2 streets vs an unknown with no reads. The river min bet is probably meant to induce a raise but can have a blocking side effect. As you mentioned you were worried when called on the turn and may have likely checked back river, this way V gets an extra 2 BB. I assume this V would call a raise which in general would be bad unless he managed to induce some spaz. One pair hands shouldn't be raising much (at least not the ones that QQ can beat), missed draws should also be giving up, but given V let the SB float pre without squeezing he is probably not thinking on a high level.
 
Evan Jarvis

Evan Jarvis

Legend
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Total posts
1,935
Awards
4
Today I played a hand where I raised AJ from the button and both blinds called. The flop was a semi dry J high flop. It got checked to me and I made a half pot bet and only BB called.

I fired off another bet on a brick turn and got called again, at this point I was a bit worried I might be beat.

On the river villain minbet and I just called.

Would it have been a mistake to fire 3 streets considering I didn't suspect villain was chasing a draw? Should I even have gone for 2 streets of value?

Villain flipped over QQ. I'm surprised he didn't 3 bet, maybe because it was multiway and he figured he could take a bigger pot if somone hit the flop.

Also. Was that river bet some kind of blocker bet?

No reads on this player prior to this hand.


To be able to analyze spots like this and have us give accurate feedback it would be helpful if you can include the following in the posts.

#1 Player type you were up against (Nit, Weak Tight, Calling Station, Etc.)
For more on this check out my playlist on types & how to beat them
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBrNnyWekagOoExJPqtRmidlSDjsIBxIl

#2 Positions of all players involved (is someone in the blinds, on the button)
This greatly affects how wide the ranges are preflop which helps to identify what % of their range you can get to fold with each bet (remember, this is what's ESSENTIAL in deciding if a bet will be immediately profitable or not)

#3 Specific bet sizing relative to the pot (this will also help predict what parts of your opponents range they will be folding out)

In general if they can still have a bunch of medium strength hands then continue to semi bluff is fine, but if you've made a bet early that will fold out all their medium strength stuff and only leave in the best hands, then it's time to shut down.

As played, it sounds like you were up against a weak tight player and the min bet is a blocker but also an induction bet. It's like a fake check that will often get a raise from you when you have air because you can't win by calling but it looks like you can get a great price on a bluff.

Not the most orthodox play, but definitely one that tens to get a fair bit of action!

Hope that helps
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

Visionary
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Total posts
647
To be able to analyze spots like this and have us give accurate feedback it would be helpful if you can include the following in the posts.

#1 Player type you were up against (Nit, Weak Tight, Calling Station, Etc.)
For more on this check out my playlist on types & how to beat them
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBrNnyWekagOoExJPqtRmidlSDjsIBxIl

#2 Positions of all players involved (is someone in the blinds, on the button)
This greatly affects how wide the ranges are preflop which helps to identify what % of their range you can get to fold with each bet (remember, this is what's ESSENTIAL in deciding if a bet will be immediately profitable or not)

#3 Specific bet sizing relative to the pot (this will also help predict what parts of your opponents range they will be folding out)

In general if they can still have a bunch of medium strength hands then continue to semi bluff is fine, but if you've made a bet early that will fold out all their medium strength stuff and only leave in the best hands, then it's time to shut down.

As played, it sounds like you were up against a weak tight player and the min bet is a blocker but also an induction bet. It's like a fake check that will often get a raise from you when you have air because you can't win by calling but it looks like you can get a great price on a bluff.

Not the most orthodox play, but definitely one that tens to get a fair bit of action!

Hope that helps


Thanks so much for the advice Evan, it's very helpful indeed :).

This was a fast fold table and unfortunately I had 0 reads on this guy. Normally I would probably back off against a tight player on the turn, or just bet smaller as not to induce a bigger raise if I check it over to him (I don't know if this is flawed thinking at micros or not; but my assumption is if I raise smaller than he would raise if checked to I would lose less while still getting value if I'm ahead; and that he would also be afraid to reraise me out of fear of me folding). Probably a fishy strategy lol, but I can only assume other weak players would just hit the call button.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
10,280
Awards
1
Its much easier to give good feedback, if you post the actual hand history. Many small details matter like the suits of the cards, and the easiest way to not miss something is to simply post the entire history. With that being said, if this was a micro stakes game, I would not mind going for 3 streets with TPTK in position. I think, he can certainly have hands like KJ or QJ, that will pay you off. You dont have to bomb it, but you can bet something on the river.

Him showing up with QQ is just weird, and it does not mean, you did anything wrong. If he wants to play passive and let you value own yourself with AJ on a J high board, that is fine, because he is giving up a lot of value elsewhere. Yesterday I had a somewhat similar hand, where I isolated a limper with AJ, hit an A high flop, went 3 streets for value and got shown AK. Feels kind of silly of course, but when someone is playing 60% of their hands, like this guy was, they can have many other hands than AK as well, and they are typically not very good at folding. So I just ran into the top of his range, and so did you.
 
TheDude6622

TheDude6622

Legend
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Total posts
2,348
Awards
2
Thanks so much for the advice Evan, it's very helpful indeed :).

This was a fast fold table and unfortunately I had 0 reads on this guy. Normally I would probably back off against a tight player on the turn, or just bet smaller as not to induce a bigger raise if I check it over to him (I don't know if this is flawed thinking at micros or not; but my assumption is if I raise smaller than he would raise if checked to I would lose less while still getting value if I'm ahead; and that he would also be afraid to reraise me out of fear of me folding). Probably a fishy strategy lol, but I can only assume other weak players would just hit the call button.

So this is one of those times when we face a player that doesn't play ABC poker. This is an out of the box way to play QQ, giving the opponent (you in this case) a chance to build the pot or bet with the J that hit on the board. This is a note that we have to be aware of a super slow play from this player.
 
ventrolloquist

ventrolloquist

Visionary
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Total posts
647
Its much easier to give good feedback, if you post the actual hand history. Many small details matter like the suits of the cards, and the easiest way to not miss something is to simply post the entire history. With that being said, if this was a micro stakes game, I would not mind going for 3 streets with TPTK in position. I think, he can certainly have hands like KJ or QJ, that will pay you off. You dont have to bomb it, but you can bet something on the river.

Him showing up with QQ is just weird, and it does not mean, you did anything wrong. If he wants to play passive and let you value own yourself with AJ on a J high board, that is fine, because he is giving up a lot of value elsewhere. Yesterday I had a somewhat similar hand, where I isolated a limper with AJ, hit an A high flop, went 3 streets for value and got shown AK. Feels kind of silly of course, but when someone is playing 60% of their hands, like this guy was, they can have many other hands than AK as well, and they are typically not very good at folding. So I just ran into the top of his range, and so did you.
Hey. Sorry I normally do post the hand history but microgaming are a bit of a PITA in that I have to email them to ask for it and I didn't take down the hand ID. So it would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

Thanks for the advice. It's definitely an odd one out situation and I find myself relying on gut instinct more than theory at these stakes sometimes.
 
Last edited:
Vallet

Vallet

Legend
Joined
Jun 5, 2019
Total posts
1,781
Awards
12
Your opponent is careful and competent. He waited for someone to catch the flop. So you created a big bank for him. Making an opponent think that he is ahead is the art of masking the hand.
 
Top