1st Post: Intro & Overplaying 2 Pair: Help

F

Freeroll88

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Total posts
14
Chips
0
Hi all. As the subject states, this is my first post to the forum. I just began playing poker again and have decided to make a real effort at become a winning player. I work minutes from my local casino; I plan on working my full time job, and playing 15-20 hours per week while building a bank roll.

The issue: I'm having trouble following my reads, and I wind up calling off my stack, or a large portion with a worse hand.

Note that I'm playing 1/2 nl live, buying in for $200. The hand I'll post tonight is two pair where I put in $120 of my remaining stack with two pair.

Since doing some off the table studying, I've decided to take a more conservative approach to the game while I become more comfortable with positional play and reading the table. With that said I have played pretty solid ABC poker for the first couple hours. Made two 3-bets on the button, one fairly light with AJo and again with AKo. Openers folded to me both times.

Onto the hand..

10 players
Hero: $180
Villain: $300+

Hero: SB with Kc4c
Villain: UTG1 77 (fish)

Villain is first limper followed by 3-4 more limps. I add the dollar.

Flop: 9c7dKs

Hero: bets 8
Villain: calls
Table folds

Turn: 4

Hero: bets 15
Villain: raises to 40

River: 3 (no flush/straight possibilities)

Hero: checks
Villain: bets 70

Hero: calls and loses to 77

On the turn I was concerned. My thought process was maybe he limped with 79 suited, K9 or has 77. I figured he'd raise his 99, Ak, KQ hands preflop. I called the raise anyway with my two pair.

River is a 3 and I check for pot control but plan to call his bet on the river. He quickly makes it 70 and again I'm thinking the worst he has is 79 and why would he limp with 79 UTG1.

All other two pair combos off the flop or sets have me beat. There is no flush to bluff, and I cant imagine he'd ever play 810 this way. I was fairly certain, given the dry board, his limp, and his turn / river aggression that he had to have K9 or 77. I don't believe I saw him 3 bet once in the two hours I sat down.

I called anyway and lost over 65% of my stack in the hand.

I'm looking for some advice on how this hand played out, and if this should be an easy fold moving forward. I tend to have reads like this often, but call off a large portion anyway. Any advice / critisism is appreciated. His smug look told me he wasn't worried at all about a call. I should have folded.
 
playinggameswithu

playinggameswithu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Total posts
2,250
Chips
0
YOU REALLY HAVE TO FOLLOW YOUR INTUITION. You knew you were behind and you still got fu.cked.
 
F

Freeroll88

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Total posts
14
Chips
0
I agree. My intuition is often there yet I make the call by falsely assigning villain the unlikely hand that I can beat.
 
MattRyder

MattRyder

🍏 Tech That Works!
Platinum Level
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Total posts
8,309
Awards
15
Chips
0
I don't play live, but if this were an online game I'd have a few concerns right off the bat:

Limping from SB following 4 -5 limpers is usually a recipe for disaster.
Playing K4 (suited or not) from SB is usually a recipe for disaster.
Continuing to play a pair of Kings with a 4 kicker out of position is usually a recipe for disaster.

My advice - stick to ABC. The earlier the position, the better the cards you're going to need. If you're going to play speculative and risky hands like K4s, do it from the button.
 
Vorem

Vorem

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 15, 2017
Total posts
918
Chips
0
I agree with Matt Ryder, getting a hand like K4 on a flop is a very bad idea. It is better to try to limp SB on the flop with hands like suited connectors, weak small pairs - all that may well hit the flop. But not Kx, Ax.
So as not to lose money on a weak kicker
 
F

Freeroll88

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Total posts
14
Chips
0
Thank you for the input. Playing small pairs and suited connectors makes more sense. I think I'm playing too loose from the blinds, with the usual mind set that half the blind is already there so why not.

So you fold your kx suited here, even though it has the king high flush potential for only a dollar more?
 
Vorem

Vorem

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 15, 2017
Total posts
918
Chips
0
So you fold your kx suited here, even though it has the king high flush potential for only a dollar more?

The probability of getting into the flush to the river is 6.4%. and get a flush on the flop - 0.84%. At a long distance, I do not think it's worth it
 
MattRyder

MattRyder

🍏 Tech That Works!
Platinum Level
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Total posts
8,309
Awards
15
Chips
0
At a full ring table the chances that the Ace of the same suit is also being played by someone else are very high. Depending on the flop, that could make your chase very expensive and in the end you may be totally beat.

I will usually play suited A-small x (not K-small x) only if I can get in very cheaply, and even then I want to do it in late position. If you hit the flop, it's going to be a draw. That means it's going to cost you to continue. If you happen to pair your Ace as well, you're still probably way behind a higher AX.

Small pairs on the other hand are mostly money makers. If you hit the flop with a set, you're usually way ahead of everyone else. I'll play a small pair from any position and easily call normal pre-flop raises. I always bet them pre-flop if no one else has, but will only call an earlier raise.

Depending on a lot of factors I may even call bigger raises pre-flop if I figure villain has a big pair (AA KK QQ). Those are huge money makes if you hit your set.

Oh, and small suited connectors are very speculative, especially at a full ring table. I may play them sometimes, but when I win, it's usually because of bluffing, or making 2 pair or trips, not catching the best flush/straight.
 
F

Freeroll88

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Total posts
14
Chips
0
I do appreciate the detailed feedback. Given how the kx hand played out, and your input, I'm going to make this fold going forward and trade off for some small Ax suited hands on occasion. I've been in this situation before where I get in with a kx and hit the two pair to lose to a bigger two pair or set.

..Eliminating the need to make a tough call/fold in these spots should hopefully have a positive result on my bankroll.

I'm glad you mentioned how you'd play your small pairs as I was going to make a separate post about that. I also like to limp or limp/call a pre flop bet with small pairs and play them from all positions. However this is a bit outside the conservative ABC approach I'm currently taking. I just feel they can be very profitable in certain full ring games and I can't see the justification for folding them for a small pre flop investment
 
F

Freeroll88

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Total posts
14
Chips
0
Looking at those numbers it does not appear to be. Thanks for the post
 
Kenzie 96

Kenzie 96

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 21, 2005
Total posts
13,667
Awards
9
US
Chips
135
Thank you for the input. Playing small pairs and suited connectors makes more sense. I think I'm playing too loose from the blinds, with the usual mind set that half the blind is already there so why not.

So you fold your kx suited here, even though it has the king high flush potential for only a dollar more?





The blinds, SB & BB are forced bets, once they are in the middle it ain't your money anymore, casually throwing more into the pot with crap hands makes little sense, especially if you don't have the discipline to fold post flop with a piece of the pot & what is still a crap hand. Folding with iffy to bad hands is an important discipline to master if you seek long term profit.
 
M

MrSamsa

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 6, 2017
Total posts
112
Chips
0
I agree with MattRyder's post up top, at 1/2 your hand is only calling for its nut flopping potential when the clubs come out. If its for anything else its to maybe call down small bets but even thats probably -ev at these stakes.

I've seen players at this stake overlimp with pocket Kings in MP, so you just really never know where your at. More or less its a bit like PLO when it comes to the betting- by which I mean if there's three to a suit out there and they jam they almost certainly have the flush.

Dont feel to bad I lost a hand recently where i 3xd jj utg+2 got 4 callers

Board:

9d 2h 5c

I c-bet all others fold except small blind who raised

i called

Turn was a brick he jammed I called with the overpair and he showed 22

This is a hand I could have easily, easily, easily got away from even with the supper aggro online field but decided to stack off with due to stubbornness and
muh ovuhpair

You have to downsize your hand strength in the pair-trips range in limp/ multiway pot happy 1/2 games . It helped me to think of all my hands as one step down in the ranking. I value bet two pair like I would top pair a set like two pair. Obviously certain boards and scenarios didnt apply to that rule, and i adjusted accordingly
 
F

Freeroll88

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Total posts
14
Chips
0
I think I should have folded. Since posting and reading the replies I've been avoiding these spots all together. It's made my decision making easier.
...

On your hand..

I think of it like this..

The board was very dry. No flush draw. Open ended and gut shot draws with the 52 combo (34, 46 hands etc) but only gut shots with the 59 combo (67, 68 hands). Check raises are suspicious in general. A check raise on this flop is very suspicious. Seeing as you opened in early position pre-flop, he can likely put you on a strong hand if you're generally a tighter player. High pairs, AK, AQ are in your range.

Would you also C-bet your AK, AQ here if checked to you? If so you likely instant fold on the flop with these hands when he check raises, which means he should only put you on a pocket pair when you call here. Maybe A9 suited, but unlikely if you're a tighter player. Given that, a turn all in bluff in most cases wouldn't work against you in this spot so he'd have to be betting the goods. I think a fold can be made on the turn depending on the stacks and pot size. I don't think he is check raising a 9 too often. But that is where player tendencies can be factored in.

Some additional things to think about..

Has he 3-bet or check raised before at this table? If not, would he try it here with a mediocre hand or a bluff?

Unlikely he'd call an UTG open with 95, 92 or 52 which discounts two pair. He may call with 89, 910, 9J, 9Q, K9, A9 etc.. but would he play to lo pair this way?
 
Last edited:
S

Sublimenal

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 14, 2019
Total posts
27
Chips
0
I see your problem

Without studying the hands you have provided, Where ever you play poker, change venues until you become more skilled. They regulars have a read on you that you probably don't notice and also limped pots are dangerous often setting yourself up for the bad beat. You have to be able to put your opponent on a hand or your just guessing unless you have the nuts..
 
Top