£100 NLHE. Full ring. Nitty fold?

[MKfoster]

This hand has been playing on my mind a bit because I can’t work out if this is stupid or not.

Live cash game. £1/£1 blinds at local casino.

I’m not a regular player but I play a bit and I like to learn about the game.

9 man. Villain opens to £6 (pretty standard for the table) UTG+1, one caller in mid position, then folds round to me in the cut off.

The villain had been very quiet, not played many pots and had folded to 3 bets preflop a few times. The caller had been trying to see lots of flops, lots of calling preflop, so I had him as loose passive.

Villains stack was approx £130 when the hand started.

I had about £250.

I have AKo (suits aren’t important for the action)

3 bet to £20.

Blinds fold, villain calls, other caller folds.

The fact that the villain didn’t fold meant I put him on quite a strong starting hand, as he had folded to 3bets previously. So I’m thinking big aces (although I have blockers for this), pairs 8/9+ and maybe suited broadways. Don’t think his range consists of much else. I’m assuming he 4bets QQ+.

Flop comes A Q 9 on a rainbow.

Villain checks, I bet £30 into £48. I had not been throwing loads of chips around, the table had been quite loose aggressive in general and in those circumstances I generally tighten up a bit and try to value bet my hands.

At this point the villain shoves. £110 into £78.

This completely took me by surprise. Not too many decent draws out there (only J10) which seemed unlikely for him to call a 3bet out of position, based on his previous play.

I think for a while then fold. I just couldn’t see any hands I was beating at this point, I just convinced myself he had either flopped a set of 9s or AQ hit two pair. I couldn’t see him doing this with air, and the only hand I’m beating really is a weaker ace or chopping with AK.

I also have a general rule that I never go all in with one pair if raised, because you are usually behind.

The villain showed me AJ 🤦🏻*♂️.

Based on the stack sizes and the size of bet, mathematically I should be calling this I think. But in a vacuum, I think you are usually behind?

Or is this just a snap call? And I’m just a nit, that doesn’t know what he’s doing?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[ramignis]

the fact that it often reset to 3 betas does not mean that it is not a new one on the contrary it often opened and reset . so he's loose and comes in with trash. you shouldn't have thrown in a 3 bet pot is not thrown away.

 

[gustav197poker]

This is an instant call in a live game, unless we have a very specific reading about the villain UTG + 1. We're only behind 3 Q-Q, 3 9-9 and an aces combo. Another option is to increase more in preflop. And if the villain pushes, we have a tighter decision and the preflop fold could make a little more sense.
Greetings.

 

[MKfoster]

This is an instant call in a live game, unless we have a very specific reading about the villain UTG + 1. We're only behind 3 Q-Q, 3 9-9 and an aces combo. Another option is to increase more in preflop. And if the villain pushes, we have a tighter decision and the preflop fold could make a little more sense.
Greetings.

So because we only are behind to 3 9s combo, 3 Qs combo and 6 AQ combo we should snap call? Because that only makes up a small part of total combinations in his range. And we just pay off these combinations if he shows up with them?

This is the least exploitable play for us, because folding to shoves when we have strong holdings is - EV in the long run?

In this case I’m pretty much dead to a set, but AQ I still have roughly 12% equity with my K, so I could in fact win the hand anyway.

I had convinced myself this was a correct fold, especially at the time, but the more I thought about it the more I see this is probably wrong in the long term (and in this particular hand).

Thanks

 

[Madragalahad]

This hand has been playing on my mind a bit because I can’t work out if this is stupid or not.

Live cash game. £1/£1 blinds at local casino.

I’m not a regular player but I play a bit and I like to learn about the game.

9 man. Villain opens to £6 (pretty standard for the table) UTG+1, one caller in mid position, then folds round to me in the cut off.

The villain had been very quiet, not played many pots and had folded to 3 bets preflop a few times. The caller had been trying to see lots of flops, lots of calling preflop, so I had him as loose passive.

Villains stack was approx £130 when the hand started.

I had about £250.

I have AKo (suits aren’t important for the action)

3 bet to £20.

Blinds fold, villain calls, other caller folds.

The fact that the villain didn’t fold meant I put him on quite a strong starting hand, as he had folded to 3bets previously. So I’m thinking big aces (although I have blockers for this), pairs 8/9+ and maybe suited broadways. Don’t think his range consists of much else. I’m assuming he 4bets QQ+.

Flop comes A Q 9 on a rainbow.

Villain checks, I bet £30 into £48. I had not been throwing loads of chips around, the table had been quite loose aggressive in general and in those circumstances I generally tighten up a bit and try to value bet my hands.

At this point the villain shoves. £110 into £78.

This completely took me by surprise. Not too many decent draws out there (only J10) which seemed unlikely for him to call a 3bet out of position, based on his previous play.

I think for a while then fold. I just couldn’t see any hands I was beating at this point, I just convinced myself he had either flopped a set of 9s or AQ hit two pair. I couldn’t see him doing this with air, and the only hand I’m beating really is a weaker ace or chopping with AK.

I also have a general rule that I never go all in with one pair if raised, because you are usually behind.

The villain showed me AJ 🤦🏻*♂️.

Based on the stack sizes and the size of bet, mathematically I should be calling this I think. But in a vacuum, I think you are usually behind?

Or is this just a snap call? And I’m just a nit, that doesn’t know what he’s doing?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

It's a difficult one, based on his earlier tight play. I think that if you are going to make the continuation bet at the flop you have to be prepared to call a shove. If he were trapping having flopped a set (and, as you say, I think we can rule out AA and QQ), a flat call would be what I'd expect, followed by a check-raise on the turn - his shove screams that he doesn't want it called. The other thing I'd want to know is how much he'd dropped folding to 3-bets earlier: was he likely feeling under enough pressure to make reckless bets?

 

[MKfoster]

It's a difficult one, based on his earlier tight play. I think that if you are going to make the continuation bet at the flop you have to be prepared to call a shove. If he were trapping having flopped a set (and, as you say, I think we can rule out AA and QQ), a flat call would be what I'd expect, followed by a check-raise on the turn - his shove screams that he doesn't want it called. The other thing I'd want to know is how much he'd dropped folding to 3-bets earlier: was he likely feeling under enough pressure to make reckless bets?

Sure, check call with check raise on later street would be the more natural line for a set. And the shove does seem a bit desperate. I guess that just comes with experience, and I don’t have that much, especially live.

But if we do call, are we expecting to be behind most of the time? And we are just calling because we are priced in and committed with such a low SPR (which was less than 2 after he shoves).

Or we still think we have a good chance of being ahead?

Obviously, as all things in poker, this is dependent on many other factors (villain, stacks, format of game etc etc)

 

[Evan Jarvis]

This hand has been playing on my mind a bit because I can’t work out if this is stupid or not.

Live cash game. £1/£1 blinds at local casino.

I’m not a regular player but I play a bit and I like to learn about the game.

9 man. Villain opens to £6 (pretty standard for the table) UTG+1, one caller in mid position, then folds round to me in the cut off.

The villain had been very quiet, not played many pots and had folded to 3 bets preflop a few times. The caller had been trying to see lots of flops, lots of calling preflop, so I had him as loose passive.

Villains stack was approx £130 when the hand started.

I had about £250.

I have AKo (suits aren’t important for the action)

3 bet to £20.

Blinds fold, villain calls, other caller folds.

The fact that the villain didn’t fold meant I put him on quite a strong starting hand, as he had folded to 3bets previously. So I’m thinking big aces (although I have blockers for this), pairs 8/9+ and maybe suited broadways. Don’t think his range consists of much else. I’m assuming he 4bets QQ+.

Flop comes A Q 9 on a rainbow.

Villain checks, I bet £30 into £48. I had not been throwing loads of chips around, the table had been quite loose aggressive in general and in those circumstances I generally tighten up a bit and try to value bet my hands.

At this point the villain shoves. £110 into £78.

This completely took me by surprise. Not too many decent draws out there (only J10) which seemed unlikely for him to call a 3bet out of position, based on his previous play.

I think for a while then fold. I just couldn’t see any hands I was beating at this point, I just convinced myself he had either flopped a set of 9s or AQ hit two pair. I couldn’t see him doing this with air, and the only hand I’m beating really is a weaker ace or chopping with AK.

I also have a general rule that I never go all in with one pair if raised, because you are usually behind.

The villain showed me AJ 🤦🏻*♂️.

Based on the stack sizes and the size of bet, mathematically I should be calling this I think. But in a vacuum, I think you are usually behind?

Or is this just a snap call? And I’m just a nit, that doesn’t know what he’s doing?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks

Thank you for sharing this hand. I know the feeling of making these folds and being wrong.
It's easy to project our style onto others and thinking if we wouldnt check-raise a flop all in with less than one pair then they wouldn't either, but it's important to realize that people don't think and play the same way you do (especially not in live poker)

This also shows the danger of having rules that are too strict (i.e. I can't call a raise with just one pair)

The important things here are the stack to pot ratio on the flop (you only have 2x the pot behind, and in most cases with anything less than 3x pot on the flop it is OK to get it in with top pair top kicker, overpairs, and so forth... it is moreso when you hare 10x SPR that you want to play these hands more cautiously)

The other thing here is 3bet size and being too tight in assuming villains range. In live games people will call 3bets with many pairs and all suited broadways, ESPECIALLY FOR A CHEAP PRICE

They opened to $6, your 3-bet to $20 is quite small, especially with the extra caller. In this spot to get them to fold any hands I would make it at least $30 if not $35-40.

For the size you chose they will usually call with all the hands they opened and try to hit a flop. Then with shallow stacks they will likely go with any piece, straight draw, mid pair, top pair bad kicker etc.

I understand the fold, what got you here was projecting your style of play and rules onto them. In live games people are much looser than you would expect, and top pair top kicker for less than 3x pot on the flop is just a hand that's too good to get away from.

If they outflopped you with QQ 99 AQ so be it, and now you see that they will get it in with much worse. A nice lesson for next time!

Now don't sweat it, just forget it, and be more prepared for the next session