Two pair vs. draw heavy board $25max

Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Seat 2: RunNJump ($19.65 in chips)
Seat 3: masonclown ($3.65 in chips)
Seat 4: OneDayWhale ($29.55 in chips)
Seat 5: hongzhong ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Daylami ($37.05 in chips)
Seat 7: Emperor XIX ($21.75 in chips)
Seat 8: DATYFATSTAX ($16.25 in chips)
Seat 9: pickpok ($8.60 in chips)
Daylami: posts small blind $0.10
Emperor XIX: posts big blind $0.25
wgbj: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Emperor XIX [8s Js]
DATYFATSTAX: folds
pickpok: folds
RunNJump: folds
masonclown: calls $0.25
OneDayWhale: folds
hongzhong: folds
Daylami: calls $0.15
Emperor XIX: checks
*** FLOP *** [8d Jd 6d]
Daylami: checks
Emperor XIX: bets $1
masonclown: folds
Daylami: calls $1
*** TURN *** [8d Jd 6d] [4s]
Daylami: checks
Emperor XIX: checks
*** RIVER *** [8d Jd 6d 4s] [9h]
Daylami: bets $4
Emperor XIX: ?

I overbet the flop to give draws incorrect odds, please don't look at the turn :(

River looks a LOT like a jack with a diamond of some sort, with the slight overbet bluff line being taken, or some retarded straight. then again, with my misclick on the turn, the straight doesn't look so retarded.

Call or fold?

Assume no info on opponent, this was only the third hand or something
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I dunno; your flop overbet followed by a check looks like a steal attempt with no follow through from his perspective, so now he decides to steal back.

Or he could have flopped a flush, let you bet at the turn, you didn't, so now he trys to make it look like a steal to get some value. Or some combo draw KsTh or something and filled the straight.

Your play makes the line a little clouded, but yeah, I think there's a good chance you're still ahead given his river overbet.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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I overbet the flop to give draws incorrect odds

just a question; would you have made the same overbet if the flop had been 8d Jd 6c instead of monotone?
 
Cheetah

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I played once with you. You bet the farm with J4o. If villain has had enough time to observe you, you have no FE.
 
tenbob

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Looks like it could be a resteal to me. Definately no raise, but I can find a call here most of the time. Especially if he has a high river AF. Against a relatively nitty player I fold here, busted draws Ad-9x sometimes does this here as well.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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I overbet the flop to give draws incorrect odds, please don't look at the turn :(

A 2/3 pot bet still 'gives draws incorrect odds', and comes with the added bonus of being more likely to be called by people with draws.

You know why you need to bet the turn, right? Aside from the fact it left you with a tricky river decision.

As played, we've under-represented our hand, so I see a bluff (perhaps with a missed ~AdX) or a weird value bet with Jx as being reasonably likely here, so call.
 
Viktor Von Doom

Viktor Von Doom

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There are very few hands you're beating here in my opinion. I think his line is more like an overbet for value than an overbet/bluff line.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I played once with you. You bet the farm with J4o. If villain has had enough time to observe you, you have no FE.

I'm not worried about FE, I'll never ever raise here. Not to mention I don't play like that in ring games..

Cboom: No I wouldn't, because the chances of someone being on a flush draw wouldn't be so good
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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Axs is a prime limping hand, but that river bet looks way big for any flush hoping for action, same thing with the str8. You're right about the overbet on the flop, any 8 or 9 out drawing hand would be foolish to call it. But that's exactly what it looks like and there are is no shortage of fools at these limits. You just can't tell. Look him up, it's worth the $4.00.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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villain telegraphed his bluff imo. also bet turn plx
 
Viktor Von Doom

Viktor Von Doom

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villain telegraphed his bluff imo. also bet turn plx
How did he telegraph his bluff? He could just has easily have checked on the turn hoping to check-raise Hero.

Curious to see the results on this one. I tend to believe his river bet represents strength and not a bluff.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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villain telegraphed his bluff imo.

wtf vanq? no, he took the most standard donk "i has the nuts" line in the universe. check/call, check/call (possibly check/raise), lead river big. we just didn't oblige him on the turn

unknows don't often overbet the pot as a bluff in a spot like this. if he had the Ad and missed it's more likely he wouldn't bet more than full pot if he was gonna bluff at all. this is closer to a crying call than a fistpump call, but i still reluctantly make it cause we has two pairs and he's an unknown
 
vanquish

vanquish

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overbet on river is a bluff 95% of the time from unknowns @ $25nl from my experience. i dont see why he wouldnt raise the nuts (nut frush etc) at any point, seeing as how he would want to be getting (more) value from hero's possible draw before he loses all value from possible hero draws on river.

i don't see overbet as a value bet on river here from villain as often as it would be a bluff imo. if anything, a value bet would be the one that's less than full pot on river as played since he wants a call from hero when he has the nuts, and does not want to fold out hands like JT etc
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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overbet on river is a bluff 95% of the time from unknowns @ $25nl from my experience

wtf planet is your experience on?

and lol @ thinking an unknown at 25NL with a flush would actually be thinking about the hand on a level beyond "omg got the nuts better slowplay tricky like". and he very well could have been going for the raise on the turn anyway. or he could just have rivered J9 or something. anyway, it's still a call for me but expect to be good like 50% of the time, not 95% of the time wtf
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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i dont see why he wouldnt raise the nuts (nut frush etc) at any point, seeing as how he would want to be getting (more) value from hero's possible draw before he loses all value from possible hero draws on river.

or before a fourth diamond hits and either (a) leads to villain fearing his small flush has just been outdrawn, or (b) kills his action should he have the flopped nut flush.

of course, it depends on how much credit you're willing to give an unknown at $25NL, heh.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Well there's plenty of opinions both ways so results are:

I called and he showed QTd for the flopped flush :(
 
vanquish

vanquish

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wtf planet is your experience on?

and lol @ thinking an unknown at 25NL with a flush would actually be thinking about the hand on a level beyond "omg got the nuts better slowplay tricky like". and he very well could have been going for the raise on the turn anyway. or he could just have rivered J9 or something. anyway, it's still a call for me but expect to be good like 50% of the time, not 95% of the time wtf

/sigh

btw pats won over jax afaik
 
Viktor Von Doom

Viktor Von Doom

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interesting
Not really. It's a pretty easy conclusion to draw on the river but not betting the turn makes the decision to fold take about 5 seconds instead of 2 seconds.
 
T

tendulkar007

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Ace of diamonds missed. On the river, you shove because he has nothing and ur bet will look like a bluff and he'll be on tilt after that.
 
T

tendulkar007

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oops, i just saw that u already posted that he showed a flush. then his check on the turn was terrible as he's letting all sets and better diamonds to get there for free.
 
beechleaf

beechleaf

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after reading it he was waiting for you too catch up srry from your flop bet and think he was only worried abot board pairing but then a gain he only saw his flush
 
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