Two AJs cash hands

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
.50/1 NLHE Ring games:
Hand #1:

Players are all loose/slightly aggressive PF, and loose/passive postflop without TPTK or better, though they are known to bluff once in a while for weird amounts (really small, or multiple times the pot). Your stereotypical donks.
FullTnk is on tilt; lost an AA vs 44 hand earlier and I'm pretty sure I'm ahead of him PF here.

What do you do on the turn here? Gutshot straight and flush draw to the nuts, but I usually never chase a turn bet to the river. Thinking ahead, how much will you bet if you do hit one of the two hands?

pokerstars GAME #5607488089: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/07/19 - 01:39:01 (ET)
Table 'Ophelia IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: murph0511 ($97.60 in chips)
Seat 2: FullTnk ($94.15 in chips)
Seat 3: ablee ($68.60 in chips)
Seat 4: alitostar ($164.50 in chips)
Seat 5: brandi75 ($151.55 in chips)
Seat 6: ChuckTs ($89.30 in chips)
alitostar: posts small blind $0.50
brandi75: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Ad Jd]
ChuckTs: raises $3 to $4
murph0511: folds
FullTnk: raises $4 to $8
ablee: folds
alitostar: calls $7.50
brandi75: folds
ChuckTs: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [7d Qs 2s]
alitostar: checks
ChuckTs: checks
FullTnk: checks
*** TURN *** [7d Qs 2s] [Td]
alitostar: checks
ChuckTs: checks
FullTnk: bets $15
alitostar: folds
ChuckTs:......


Hand #2:

This one happened after the first, and with the same donkey plus another. Both have the same style.

You flop a monster, but the raise from murph was strong, but what kind of scared me was FullTnk's cold-call. I was seriously considering him playing an overpair.

So what do you do? Call? Fold? Reraise?

POKERSTARS GAME #5607508505: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/07/19 - 01:41:41 (ET)
Table 'Ophelia IV' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: murph0511 ($97.60 in chips)
Seat 2: FullTnk ($71.15 in chips)
Seat 3: ablee ($68.60 in chips)
Seat 4: alitostar ($156.50 in chips)
Seat 5: brandi75 ($149.55 in chips)
Seat 6: ChuckTs ($119.55 in chips)
ChuckTs: posts small blind $0.50
murph0511: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Ad Jd]
FullTnk: raises $1 to $2
ablee: folds
alitostar: folds
brandi75: folds
ChuckTs: calls $1.50
murph0511: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Jc 9d Td]
ChuckTs: bets $4
murph0511: raises $14 to $18
FullTnk: calls $18
ChuckTs:........

And I don't want to hear anything about me tilting off my money at a cash table that's above my BR limit...I realize this. I just needed a change of scenery from those god-forsaken SnGs that have been so cruel to me lately. :p
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

Visionary
Quite interesting hands. In the first one I would semi-bluff raise the turn as you could potentially drag the pot then and there and if you hit (11-14 outs whether you count the A's or not) you could get a bit more on a nice value bet on the river. The odds are okay for a call but I prefer a raise here.

The second hand is a flat call for me. I think you're up against KQ for a made straight, so raising is pointless as you'll only get called anyway. If you make the flush would any of your opponents laydown a King high straight to a potential flush? This is the question to work out implieds for this hand.

Based on your stack I'd say you dragged the first pot. What happened on the second?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
First hand:

That's $15 to call in a $39 pot. I count 11 completely clean outs (9 for the flush, and two more for the straight). The K of spades is almost surely clean as well (barring the possibility that he hits a flush) and your ace is probably worth at least ~1.5 outs as well, for a grand total of 13 to 14 outs. This gives you about 2.4-to-1 of beating him, and the pot is laying you 2.6-to-1. This looks like an extremely clear call to me.

Raising could be an option, but will he fold any real hand here? Is he going to believe that you checked a good hand twice? When he folds, you probably had him beat, and when he calls he has a hand that you need the river to improve - and then you've paid too much to see it.

A fun idea: Call the turn and bet $30 on the river no matter what comes.


Hand 2:

Let's rule out folding, first of all. You have the nut flush draw on the flop and there are two players in there with you. The flush draw itself gives you an equity of 35% in this hand, so folding is clearly out the window. In fact, if you could convince both other players to all shove their stacks into the middle right now, you should still call.

Secondly, let's consider raising. You could be ahead at this point, but raising won't protect your hand. You have two players who show extreme willingness to play (which seems to suggest that you're behind) and raising a small amount isn't going to make them go away, but it does have the potential to hurt your implied odds. Furthermore, a large raise may make one of them fold, and that's something you don't want. Your flush draw is your major hope here, and you want to keep both of them in to pay the piper when you hit. Both of them are rapidly becoming pot committed, though and you're in the best relative position to make a very profitable checkraise on the turn the times you hit your flush.

Folding is out, raising doesn't seem to do you much good, so that leaves calling, for all the reasons that raising is not good.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
Hand #1
I would have made a good size bet on the flop. You have to represent a strong hand right here. It will also give you infromation on where the other opponents stand. You learned nothing from their hands by checking. On the turn, I would call and hope another spade comes on the river. You have outs.

Hand#2
I would reraise on the turn. You are in excellent position with top pair with the best kicker and the nut flush draw. You have many outs if someone has the straight, a set or two pair. Plus, it might drive out at least one player to improve your odds of winning.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
t1riel said:
Hand #1
I would have made a good size bet on the flop. You have to represent a strong hand right here. It will also give you infromation on where the other opponents stand. You learned nothing from their hands by checking. On the turn, I would call and hope another spade comes on the river. You have outs.

I semi-agree with you here. I think a bet actually might be a decent idea; reading through HoH, they call this a probe bet. I think in a pot this size, the bet would be somewhere around $5, not a 'good sized bet'. I don't see the point of putting out a 1/2 pot or bigger bet here with 2 other people in the hand, both of them showing that they're very willing to commit chips to the pot (player 2 cold-calling 8$ preflop???). I might consider it had it been HU with the original raiser, because my bet would give him the opportunity to show me more info, but not against two donkeys who I've seen call down middle pair.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
fpaul- i think he needs a better hand than what he has to overcall the second hand.. he cant raise out a worse hand that could be flat calling with an open ended straight draw (probably murph) so the remaining aces/jacks are not clean outs if the turn makes them a straight. i think this is a fold.

fulltnk could be raising pf with anything like AA KK QK 1010 99 78. There are too many hands that discount us getting 2 pair or trips that i think should make us fold.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Just adding this: By the end of my session, I had one very distinct note on FullTnk: Minraises with premium hands, and overbets with weaker hands.

Of course I didn't know at the time, but that's just somethin I thought I'd add to hint at his holding.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
joosebuck said:
fpaul- i think he needs a better hand than what he has to overcall the second hand.. he cant raise out a worse hand that could be flat calling with an open ended straight draw (probably murph) so the remaining aces/jacks are not clean outs if the turn makes them a straight. i think this is a fold.

fulltnk could be raising pf with anything like AA KK QK 1010 99 78. There are too many hands that discount us getting 2 pair or trips that i think should make us fold.

The remaining aces and jacks are not of interest in this hand. Although there is some chance that Chuck's ahead at this point, or even that he may have some unlikely outs in the remaining aces and jacks, the above all thing that makes all the difference here is that he has 8 completely clean outs to the nuts, and the 9th is all-but clean (barring the extremely unlikely event that it completes someone's straight flush).

We cannot fold the nut flush draw on the flop with two players in the pot. No way, Joose! (Woo, that fits!)
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
ChuckTs said:
I semi-agree with you here. I think a bet actually might be a decent idea; reading through HoH, they call this a probe bet. I think in a pot this size, the bet would be somewhere around $5, not a 'good sized bet'. I don't see the point of putting out a 1/2 pot or bigger bet here with 2 other people in the hand, both of them showing that they're very willing to commit chips to the pot (player 2 cold-calling 8$ preflop???). I might consider it had it been HU with the original raiser, because my bet would give him the opportunity to show me more info, but not against two donkeys who I've seen call down middle pair.

What I meant by a good sized bet is a bet that more than the minimum bet. So $5 should do it.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
is our equity that good if someone happens to be re-drawing to a FH? since those hit like 27% of the time or some such.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
If one of our opponents has a set and the other a made straight we get:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,370,754 games 0.031 secs 44,217,870 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 37.8568 % 37.77% 00.08% { AdJd }
Hand 2: 30.8937 % 30.81% 00.08% { ThTs }
Hand 3: 31.2495 % 31.16% 00.08% { KcQs }

If we decide to kill some of our flush outs and put some diamonds in Hand 3, it makes a fairly small difference:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,370,754 games 0.005 secs 274,150,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 35.6031 % 35.49% 00.12% { AdJd }
Hand 2: 32.9990 % 32.88% 00.12% { ThTs }
Hand 3: 31.3979 % 31.28% 00.12% { KdQd }


---

1,370,754 games 0.031 secs 44,217,870 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 37.8568 % 37.77% 00.08% { AdJd }
Hand 2: 30.8937 % 30.81% 00.08% { ThTs }
Hand 3: 31.2495 % 31.16% 00.08% { KcQs }


---
---
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Here are the results:
Hand #1:

*** TURN *** [7d Qs 2s] [Td]
alitostar: checks
ChuckTs: checks
FullTnk: bets $15
alitostar: folds
ChuckTs: calls $15
*** RIVER *** [7d Qs 2s Td] [9d]
ChuckTs: bets $15
FullTnk: folds
ChuckTs collected $52.35 from pot
ChuckTs: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $55 | Rake $2.65
Board [7d Qs 2s Td 9d]
Seat 1: murph0511 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: FullTnk folded on the River
Seat 3: ablee (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: alitostar (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: brandi75 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: ChuckTs collected ($52.35)

I called, thinking that #1 he might be bluffing and I might win a showdown with my ace high (unlikely though), and #2 if I hit I can hit a pretty big hand if I stick around, and he might pay me off for a small amount.
Anyways I called, bet a little too much, and he folded. Still don't know what he held.


Hand #2:

*** FLOP *** [Jc 9d Td]
ChuckTs: bets $4
murph0511: raises $14 to $18
FullTnk: calls $18
ChuckTs: calls $14
*** TURN *** [Jc 9d Td] 6♥
ChuckTs: checks
murph0511: checks
FullTnk: checks
*** RIVER *** [Jc 9d Td 6h] 2♠
ChuckTs: checks
murph0511: checks
FullTnk: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChuckTs: shows [Ad Jd] (a pair of Jacks)
murph0511: mucks hand
FullTnk: mucks hand
ChuckTs collected $57.05 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $60 | Rake $2.95
Board [Jc 9d Td 6h 2s]
Seat 1: murph0511 (big blind) mucked [Qh Jh]
Seat 2: FullTnk mucked [Kc Ah]
Seat 3: ablee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: alitostar folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: brandi75 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: ChuckTs (small blind) showed [Ad Jd] and won ($57.05) with a pair of Jacks

I thought that FullTnk had an overpair, and that he was smooth calling, and I had no idea what murph held; I was thinking along the lines of a set, maybe JT, or maybe even a made straight.
I called thinking I had a chance at a monster pot had I hit my diamond, but was surprised to see everyone check the hand down to the river with me :confused:. Anyways, results show how much I overestimate these donkeys :/
 
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