TPTK against villain on a rush [25nl 6max]

Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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FWIW he pulled this exact same move two hands before and was told by the player that he made a big laydown. He's been on a rush since he cracked my set with 37 and has been playing a lot more hands since then (about 20 hands before). Originally sat with only $15 also.

pokerstars Game #16916750154: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/04/22 - 14:31:48 (ET)
Table 'Ankaa III' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: JAYDOUBLEUC ($13.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Emperor XIX ($19.20 in chips)
Seat 3: linkku ($41.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Jah Provide ($34.40 in chips)
Seat 6: benasg ($24.65 in chips)
benasg: posts small blind $0.10
JAYDOUBLEUC: posts big blind $0.25
wrehbit: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Emperor XIX [As Js]
Emperor XIX: raises $0.50 to $0.75
linkku: folds
Jah Provide: calls $0.75
benasg: folds
JAYDOUBLEUC: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [3s Jh 2d]
JAYDOUBLEUC: checks
Emperor XIX: bets $1.50
Jah Provide: raises $2 to $3.50
JAYDOUBLEUC: folds
Emperor XIX: calls $2
*** TURN *** [3s Jh 2d] 2♥
Emperor XIX: checks
Jah Provide: bets $7.50
Emperor XIX: ?
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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I'd have bet the turn to see where I'm at (which is probably ahead). If he re-raised another $15 or whatever I'd fold, as I'm not going to stack with TPTK usually.
When he sucked out before, did he shove and then catch cards, or did he just river what he needed, thereby getting paid off on the end?

I think he could be making this move with J/Q or J/K. From what you describe he could have that 2 as well.

Anyway, because you checked we don't know where we're at and I'd just fold. Shoving is a much better option than cold calling.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I don't like shoving because we're

a) never folding out a better hand, and
b) he'll fold a lot of his worse hands.

That deuce probably didn't help him, unless he's now wild enough to raise the flop with bottom pair.

Raising doesn't accomplish anything we want and folding is - in my view - out of the question. That leaves calling, which is wildly profitable against overaggressive players and habitual bluffers. Because of the likelyhood that we have the best hand, we can't fold, so the times that he does have us beat, we're going to lose money. Since we can't do anything about that, we should focus on winning the most the times that we actually do have the best hand - and that means maximizing vs. bluffs and overplayed TPs.

I'd call, and check/call the river. If he checks behind QJ on the river, we've missed some value, but missing that value should be well compensated the times he makes a third-barrel bluff with A4.
 
SavagePenguin

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How can you say call? If the villain is bluffing you're just giving him a free card, and if he's not bluffing it's all going in on the river no matter what the card happens to be.

The villain bet $7.50 into a $9.25 pot. A call will make a $24.25 pot, and Emperor will have $7.45 left. There's no way the villain is folding to a less than minimum re-raise if he has any sort of hand.

I still say fold, but if you don't fold you have to shove.
 
D

Dr_Dick

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Tough situation...and not like I have not been there, but I don't like the way you played the hand up to this point. Your read is being up against a LAG and you have played right into his strength on the flop/turn. If you know this is the type of opponent you should have folded post flop or gotten aggressive. You don't just call a reraise w/ TPTK against a LAG and you don't check the turn.

Anyway, your past that point. You checked and he bets out $7.50 into a $9.25 pot. At this point you have $4.25 invested, you have no draws and it will be very hard to improve. Chances you hit the miracle J or improve with an A are slim and even an A does not let you get aggressive since you now have to worry about trips. There is an outside chance he is on a straight draw.

So you fold...period. You played the hand bad, don't compound the problem by calling with TPTK when you really have no idea where you stand with this hand. Lick your wounds, but have no problem reassuring yourself your $4.25 and his entire stack will be coming back to you later. Of course we always tell ourselves that and then another player stacks him or he pulls a hit and run....

Bottom line, fold, preserve your stack, and pick a better spot to go after this guy.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Dick:

I don't see how I've played badly at this point. I raised pf with a good hand. I made my usual c-bet and got raised by a maniac. Seeing how he's a maniac I let him bet for me on the turn.. where's the problem here?
 
ChuckTs

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Shoving is a much better option than cold calling.

Why?

@FP: I basically agree with you but SP does have a point in that we'll have so little behind after a potential turn call that I just get it in anyways. We're not folding out much at that point - maybe not even overs - and assuming he is a maniac, we're well ahead of his range obv.

If we're deeper we're getting a lot more fold equity with a CRAI, and your points hold a lot more weight in that we'll be scaring off more worse hands. I just think he'll be calling with the majority of his range on the turn since he'll be so committed considering our stack size.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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lol dick. emp has played the hand pretty fine up to this point. could shove flop if other guy will go broke with a weaker J but that's pretty read dependent. now on the turn might as well just push instead of calling because there's so little behind

if we're deeper then call and c/c river because pushing would get out all of his bluffs and would look so strong that it'd probably fold out made hands we beat
 
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Dr_Dick

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Dick:

I don't see how I've played badly at this point. I raised pf with a good hand. I made my usual c-bet and got raised by a maniac. Seeing how he's a maniac I let him bet for me on the turn.. where's the problem here?

You were the one in the hand and you are the one that had the read on this opponent. I can only speculate based on the information you provided. My initial take was you had made a good raise pf and a good c-bet, but that you were weak or scared when you simply called villains postflop raise. I did not realize you feel TPTK is a monster compared to the range of hands villain might have and so you intentionally smooth called without any apprehension and then because you have a monster you check the turn so this maniac can give you all his money. I apologize for misreading your thought process against this particular opponent.

So what was the question then?...another 2 hits on the turn, so given you have a monster you obviously don't fold here. It is impossible this maniac called your preflop raise with 32, A2, X2, or an overpair (maniacs are dealt overpairs less frequently than other players, it's a fact). You are undoubtedly good here so what is the question again...I guess it is how do you extract the most value since you are most likely way ahead given the read you have on your opponent. So you are asking if you raise now or if you just smooth call again and lead out on the river, or you could check the river and let the maniac try to bluff you with a 3rd barrel.

I would have to say given how aggressive this maniac is you smooth call and then check the river to give the maniac the opportunity to fire a 3rd shot. You have no reason to believe he will check behind and if for some reason he was on a pure bluff, if you lead out he has little option but to fold. And if for some crazy reason he was holding a better hand the whole way, no big deal you just reload.
 
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blankoblanco

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dick,

pot would be $24 on river and we'd have $7 left behind. villain is almost always going to realize a bluff is hopeless on the river. so basically all we do by smoothcalling the turn is give him a chance to freeroll a 3 outer or something on us when he's bluffing. if he doesn't hit or didn't already have a hand, he's not gonna bluff again when we're pot committed. if stacks were deeper, i'd agree with your assessment
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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How can you say call? If the villain is bluffing you're just giving him a free card, and if he's not bluffing it's all going in on the river no matter what the card happens to be.
Villain isn't getting a free card. As you pointed out, he's betting $7.50 into a $9.25 pot. And which cards exactly are we afraid to give him? Q? K? He's not likely to have a lot of outs if we're ahead.

There's no way the villain is folding to a less than minimum re-raise if he has any sort of hand.
I'm not concerned with what happens if he has any sort of hand; I'm concerned with what happens the times that he's bluffing.

Chuck: Good points, but I disagree with what players like this do when they get faced with an all-in raise. In my experience, they lay down a lot of hands (but none that we beat in this case, obviously) despite the pot odds. They don't want to be caught bluffing, or whatever it is they figure.

I agree that deeper stacks would have made my arguments stronger, but I still think there's enough in Emperor's stack to make this worthwhile.

I say let him make his all-in bluff on the river, since we have much greater equity over his river-push-range than what we do over his turn-call-push-range, coupled with very little fold equity.
 
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Dr_Dick

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Combu,

I agree, I failed to really consider the stacks.

But, what do you believe this maniac is holding? I know it is difficult because by definition a maniac can hold nearly anything. If it is a pure bluff then going over the top leaves the maniac with no choice but to fold. You mention free roll, so you must think the maniac got a piece of the flop...so what do you put him on?

KJ, QJ I think maniac will not fold and will bet the river. 54 he doesn't fold if you go over the top...and do you think if he misses he simply concedes the hand or does he fire the $7 with some small chance our hero folds?

AK, AQ, TT-44...you think he check raised the flop and then bet out the turn? Why wouldn't he freeroll the turn or is he just trying to represent the 2?

Well interesting hand...I have no idea at this point what maniac might have. Based on this single hand, I would still have to say you can find a better spot to get maniacs money, but OP played with him and has the read.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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dick,

pot would be $24 on river and we'd have $7 left behind. villain is almost always going to realize a bluff is hopeless on the river. so basically all we do by smoothcalling the turn is give him a chance to freeroll a 3 outer or something on us when he's bluffing. if he doesn't hit or didn't already have a hand, he's not gonna bluff again when we're pot committed. if stacks were deeper, i'd agree with your assessment
Hey, who're you calling d... Oh. I get it.

I disagree with him not bluffing again, and for two reasons:

* He's not going to think "bah, pot committed" on the river because he may well not know what that even is.
* His stack, and this is a bit of a weird argument but I'm basing it on the idea that this particular villain doesn't necessarily know what he's up to, has quite a bit more left than just the $7.45 that Emp's does. The futility of his bluff, if he even thinks in those terms, isn't as immediately obvious to him as if he was the one with the shortstack himself.

... And I still can't wrap my head around the idea of folding.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Combu,

I agree, I failed to really consider the stacks.

But, what do you believe this maniac is holding? I know it is difficult because by definition a maniac can hold nearly anything. If it is a pure bluff then going over the top leaves the maniac with no choice but to fold. You mention free roll, so you must think the maniac got a piece of the flop...so what do you put him on?

KJ, QJ I think maniac will not fold and will bet the river. 54 he doesn't fold if you go over the top...and do you think if he misses he simply concedes the hand or does he fire the $7 with some small chance our hero folds?

AK, AQ, TT-44...you think he check raised the flop and then bet out the turn? Why wouldn't he freeroll the turn or is he just trying to represent the 2?

Well interesting hand...I have no idea at this point what maniac might have. Based on this single hand, I would still have to say you can find a better spot to get maniacs money, but OP played with him and has the read.

There are no 'better spots' in ring games - if you're ahead of your opponent's range, then you get your money in. If villain is truly a 'maniac' here, then we're ahead of his range, and the only issue is how best to get his money in the middle.

His range is basically split into bluffs (78, AK, A9, 44 etc), jacks that he thinks are best and made hands (QQ+, 33, 2x)
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Well interesting hand...I have no idea at this point what maniac might have.

What does it matter what specific hand he has? We know he has a range, and that we beat it.

Look at the different hand groups in his range, look at what results are yielded by taking certain actions, and take it from there.

We have basically:

Hands that beat us: Well we've already established that we're ahead of his range, so we just have to pay this hand group off. The ideal line against this group would be to fold, but we're ahead of the two other hand groups, so we have to pay this group off.

Hands that he thinks he's value betting but we have beat {Jx, maybe TT or something}: We're clearly ahead of this group. At best he has three outs to pair his kicker, plus a few more to chop. Bottom line is we're not afraid of giving this hand group a free card. There's not that much chance of him folding any hands in this group to the CRAI on the turn, but it's still a possibility, so we let him bet his hand for us.

Bluffs {AK, 78s, 44, A3 etc}: Again we're clearly ahead of this group, and most hands are drawing to few outs. The most possible outs he can have is like 15 with KQh, but aside from that he's drawing to 6, 2 or none most of the time. We want to keep this range thinking they have some FE, so we check to induce bluffs. Now of course the stack size issue is there as well, but we've already discussed that.

So you can see why reraising the flop or donking the turn or whatever is pointless. You generally scare the bluffs out and occasionally Jx and TT/99 etc as well. Sure, now you know where you stand by 3-betting the flop for ex, but it's then cost you like $12 to find out he's pushing a better hand, and you've lost all value from the bluffs/worse hands in his range.

This is another wa/wb spot with the added value of villain bluffing a very high percentage of the time.
 
widowmaker89

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I guess I am missing the part he is a crazed maniac that goes after every pot. Just because he enters a lot of pots doesnt mean he bluffs at every pot. Maybe he pulled the same move off with a good hand and now has another? Or bluffed last time but not this time. I dont think a sample size of 1 is really good enough when he didnt even show it down.

Going strickly off of what you said I probably give him the hand. You really want to play for stacks with TPTK just because he calls a lot of hands PF and won a big pot earlier playing it aggressive after the flop?
 
blankoblanco

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You really want to play for stacks with TPTK just because he calls a lot of hands PF and won a big pot earlier playing it aggressive after the flop?

lol at putting him on exactly 33, quads, or a weird slowplayed overpair. ffs we crush his range. do people even think about board textures and hand ranges at all?
 
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Dr_Dick

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Combu,

How about putting him on a 2? Any 2, including A2, 32, or 72...Is 72 out of maniacs range? Can you count a 2 as being part of the texture of the flop?

And an overpair is played weird/slowplayed if you raise the original bettor post flop and then bet the turn?

At this point, the only defensible position is based on original posters read of the villain, that allows our hero to take a measly, easily beatable TPTK and play it like he has a monster. It is ONLY the idea that our hero is so sure this is a maniac with nothing that allows him to smooth call the raise post flop and then confidently check the turn so that he can lure the maniac in for yet more money with his TPTK.
 
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widowmaker89

widowmaker89

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So every TPTK we should stack if no flush or straight and low cards are out? What exactly is his range we are crushing? Everyone is just banking on a bluff here. What makes sense with his betting if its not a bluff? set does, KJ maybe, although you have showed strength here. What kind of hand is hero representing here? Exactly what he has I would say, maybe 99 TT. So if villian really trying to bluff you off a big hand or just maybe has one himself?

I guess I dont get why everyone is putting so much that he is bluffing. I agree this is wa/wb and this looks more like a wb I would say. Whats the point of playing a wa/wb strategy if you are just going to stack it because he might be bluffing?
 
blankoblanco

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if all that stuff is in his range, i.e. him calling pre with a 2 and check-raising bottom pair on the flop, it just adds even more junk to his range that we beat than what beats us

So every TPTK we should stack if no flush or straight and low cards are out?

jhkfdsglkdfddsafkldfa. no. neither myself or anyone else said anything even resembling that. jesus
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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widow, if you're folding here, you're basically saying you're not continuing with anything less than a full house, which is absolutely ridiculous. AJ basically = AA here. only difference is the unlikely event that he slowplayed an overpair, fairly unlikely from an aggressive player with his image. also, it's 6max. people make plays. TPTK is a very good hand here
 
ChuckTs

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"colour group" is my custom group of TT-44 and 45, ie bluffs/semibluffs. I'm sure there's more than that in his range, but the results for this already establish we're well ahead of his range. Also keep in mind his overpairs can be given less 'weight' in his range since it's unlikely (but possible) that he slowplayed them pf.

It's ridiculous to suggest we're folding TPTK on this board to a maniac. RIDICULOUS.
 

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widowmaker89

widowmaker89

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You seem to be putting him on hand ranges based solely off what he might play PF. He has raised the flop and made a turn bet, I think this is information we should consider here. Yes he could be bluffing I agree, but I dont know why we think he bluffs a lot, playing a lot of hands does not mean he bluffs a lot, and playing aggressively once is also not a great reason to assume its a bluff.

So yes, we are ahead of his PF range but he is representing a much stronger range here. I just dont like the situation based only on what we have.
 
widowmaker89

widowmaker89

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Ok if he was a maniac I completely agree. Him entering a lot of pots and playing the flop aggressively once doesnt quite make me put the maniac tag on him. If he showed down a couple bluffs(One would be a start) then this is an easy call.
 
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