Top two pair VS trips, what to do?

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wreckoning

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I am in a casino last night, have been there for hours. $1-2 NL Hold'em. Have $400 in chips. This middleaged asian guy raises preflop $16. He is semi-tight, not too aggressive. It folds around to me in late position. I call with JK offsuit feeling like seeing a flop because I like my position. I am the only caller.

The flop comes down K J 7 rainbow. Asian guy leads into me with $20. I flat call to say that I have the K but try to hide my J.

The turn comes a Q. He leads again with $40. I try to think about what he has. He knows I wouldn't call with A10 and I know he wouldn't raise with A10. I also know he doesn't raise with KQ. If he has KK, I think he checks the flop to me, because he knows I'll bet no matter what I have. I feel that if he has AA or AK he should bet a lot bigger on the turn to try to steal the pot, or not at all. But maybe he felt my call on the flop was weak? He knows I am capable of folding to $40 on the turn.

I decide to flat call again.

The river comes an A, meaning that according to my analysis, he now has trip aces, or Aces and Kings. This just sucks. He bets $35. Stupidly I call. He shows me pocket Jacks!

Obviously I should have folded the river; there was nothing he could have had at that point, that I could beat. What bothers me is that I can't figure out a way to suss out his trips.

There were many possible combinations for pocket aces or AK, but only one combination for Jacks. So I feel it's better to call the flop than raise; in most cases, disguising my hand was the best move, since if I min-raise he knows I have KJ, and if he has AA or AK he calls then folds the turn if it doesn't help. If I do a bigger raise he might fold top pair top kicker or overpair to me. He might not, it's hard to say. If he has the jacks he shoves me all in and I have a tough decision.

But the turn, his bet really does look like a damned value bet. And now he could have a possible trip Jacks or trip Queens. Should I have folded there? How do I suss out the trips? Three times yesterday I lost top two pair to them.
 
Lafaena

Lafaena

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1-2 nl raise to 16. Obviously you should have folded preflop
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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If you're going to play the KJ against a tight player, prepare to see why it's such a trap hand... ok, check.

Now to minimize your loss here, you really need to pop that flop to find out where you stand in the hand. I'm not a big fan of smooth calling there since so many tight players will have a hand that has you dominated like AK or KK or JJ. The only hand you can hope he has on the flop is QQ and you may induce a fold if you pop it. Otherwise, if he smooth calls when you pop the flop, you just have to shut down and be cautious about how much more you put into the pot.
 
Marklar

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In live play at 1-2 raises this size are normal, atleast where I play it is. It seems to play more like an online 2/4 game to me.
 
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dan_ives

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If you're going to play the KJ against a tight player, prepare to see why it's such a trap hand... ok, check.

Now to minimize your loss here, you really need to pop that flop to find out where you stand in the hand. I'm not a big fan of smooth calling there since so many tight players will have a hand that has you dominated like AK or KK or JJ. The only hand you can hope he has on the flop is QQ and you may induce a fold if you pop it. Otherwise, if he smooth calls when you pop the flop, you just have to shut down and be cautious about how much more you put into the pot.
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Shoestringx

Shoestringx

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I think to such a big raise from a tight player you need to fold pre-flop. Smooth calling on the flop is also a problem, two pair is a good hand, but by no means a monster, I would raise here to define your hand, likely he would have reraised and then you can let the hand go.

Also, what does the guy being Asian have anything to do with the hand? No big deal, just curious why it is even mentioned?
 
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wreckoning

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Lafaena- It's a casino, not online poker where you can play multiple games at a time and wait for super-strong hands. People raise with less because they are playing less hands. From this player I believe his raise could mean anything from 88-AA, AK-AJ suited. I'm sorry, I should have defined the type of game further.

skold- But if I min-raise him, he shoves and I fold, or he calls, then bets into me again on the turn and I have to fold, whereas with my flat call I got to see the river as well for the same price.

shoestring- He's only semi-tight. As well I was playing a little tight and he is aware of this and will fold to me. I don't mind my call. I had position on him, he respects my play and can be bluffed. Good enough for me.

Being asian doesn't have anything to do with anything. It's just something to call him for reference. If he's wearing a cowboy hat I refer to him as Cowboy. If his hand shakes all the time when he puts out his chips I call him Shakey.

But my real problem here is the trips. Like I said I'm having some trouble finding them. But shok is right, trying to get fancy and deceptive was no good here. Trying to trap the trapper, ok.
 
Lafaena

Lafaena

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Ok

"Lafaena- It's a casino, not online poker where you can play multiple games at a time and wait for super-strong hands. People raise with less because they are playing less hands. From this player I believe his raise could mean anything from 88-AA, AK-AJ suited. I'm sorry, I should have defined the type of game further."


If put KJo up against "88- AA. AK-AJ suited" , your infact allways behind preflop. Your are a small underdog against three of the ten hands,a big dog against five and completely crushed by two hands.
If you belive you can counterweigh this with skill and posistion, Go ahead
and call.
 
FlopDeezNutz

FlopDeezNutz

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PREFLOP:
If you ask me, this is where you lost the hand.
Your first mistake is entering the pot with a marginal hand like KJ off suit against a tight passive player that entered the pot betting aggressively.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you put this player on AA, and were hoping to hit 2 pair on the flop so that you could trap him.
FLOP:
You didn't make a horrible play in flat calling here, because you were trying to set a trap. The reason that this was not a horrible play is because if you would have raised, he would have re-raised, which you clearly would have called or pushed back. Flat calling here probably saved you some money on the river, so it wasn't a horrible call.
TURN:
I'm curious about your call here, because there are so many combinations that could beat you here. You could be beat by KK, QQ, JJ and A10. 2 pair in this situation isn't worth the call here.
RIVER:
You had villian on AA preflop, so calling any bet on the river makes no sense. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, A10 all have you beat here. Unless you were playing for information at this point, this should have been an easy fold.
 
B

baked924

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The problem with only calling after the flop is 2 pair is a good hand but you have str8 combinations out there adn are in with a tight player. Flopping 2 pair is usually a good time to raise or bet and try and take down. If you raise the mini to $40 on the flop and he calls then chances are he has you beat. At the least he may check the turn when the Q hits thinking you hit your str8 which then gives you a chance to take it down. If he bets the turn you fold and you save $75 that you would have called on turn and river.
 
FlopDeezNutz

FlopDeezNutz

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In live play at casinos this is fairly standard.

If this is fairly standard in your casino's then you are playing with a bunch of fish that don't want confrontation and are trying to take the pot down. I'd look to exploit that fact with a far better hand than KJ off.
 
Lafaena

Lafaena

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Ok then reraise and take the pot down. If they are weak and afraid of confrontation, then reraise with diffrent hands preflop until they catch on. but dont call hoping to hit nothing and bluff him off. that just seems silly. Then i would much more like calling with a suited connector. then ateast you know when your good and the fish often have an overpair they wont get rid off.
 
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wreckoning

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Lafaena- I know I'm behind preflop. But I also know that if he is has AJ and misses or has a pocket pair and the flop brings overcards I might try a bluff and make him fold.

About reraising the preflop, well in hindsight that absolutely looks like it would have been the best move. He folds his weaker hands, calls or maybe reraises with the JJ and up. He bets into the flop, and I can call or reraise as I like- still I favour the call. But when he bets the turn I know I'm screwed and I can fold. It doesn't save me any money- what I spent calling the turn in reality now just goes to reraising him preflop- but it makes bluffing the flop look more credible to me.

FlopDeez- I don't mind my call preflop. There was a lot of raises all around the table, $16 isn't that much when both players have $400 in front of them, and there were much raises going around the table. If I thought the next time I had KJ offsuit I'd be able to see the flop for $2, no doubt I'd have folded that hand, but chances are there would be another $16 raise heh. Live play I always seem to be seen as a lot tighter than I really am, so if I were to really pull it in and wait for monster hands it's hard to get an opponent and almost impossible to trap.

I'm glad you like my flop flatcall. That is the part that most concerns me. The Turn, well. I really start to dislike my hand when the turn falls. I don't think he bets into me on both the flop and the turn with trip kings, but jacks, sevens (I know I said he wouldn't make the raise with a lower pair than 88s but I could be wrong), and queens are a real and irritating possibility. A10 I rule out. He doesn't make the preflop raise and he doesn't bet into that flop against me with A10.

But what if he actually has AK? Doesn't he make the exact same play, preflop, flop and turn? The Q is a very unfortunate turn card; does he check the turn if he has AK?
 
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