Top pair bad kicker, is this a call?

B

Bentheman87

Guest
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Total posts
794
Stacks:
* MP1 with $93.50
* MP2 with $229.80
* MP3 with $139.25
* CO with $107.05
* BTN with $97.35
* SB with $94.40
* BB with $175.95
* UTG with $106.80
* UTG+1 with $143.60

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to SB:K♦ 7♦
* * Sklansky group 7
Preflop:
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP1 calls [$1]
* * MP2 calls [$1]
* * 2 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$1]
* * Hero calls [$0.50]
* * BB checks
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: $5
Flop:
* * K♣ 8♠ 3♠
* * Hero bets [$3]
* * 3 players fold.
* * BTN calls [$3]
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: $11
Turn:
* * 6♠
* * Hero checks
* * BTN checks
* * Potsize: $11
River:
* * 2♦
* * Hero checks
* * BTN bets [$7]
* * Hero ???

Villian is unknown, is this a call or a fold on the river?
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Absolutely not. First off I don't like the bet on the flop at all. You called preflop hoping to hit a monster, you didn't hit the monster, that's where you need to basically check-fold, especially with this flop. With this many people seeing the flop you have to believe one of them has you beat on the flop and when the 4th spade comes they certainly have you. This is a spade a lot of the time. Tried to slowplay hoping you'd bluff or think your hand was good but then value bet the river. Pretty easy fold imo.
 
zebranky

zebranky

Rock Star
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Total posts
346
Fold?

first thing - why bet the flop? I think it has to be a check-fold on the flop, because TPWK is not a hand you want to be getting in a fight with when you have the worst position. As it played out, I think I still fold on the river - what do you think your opponent can have to be playing like this? Probably another King, possibly the flush when the 3rd spade came on the turn (the K on the flop was a Club, right? it's hard to see with your script). Flopped 2 pair is even possible. Maybe a bluff. But do you want to lay the odds on a bluff here?
I might raise on the river, IF I really don't think he hit the flush. represent a trap, and there's a good chance he will fold to you. I honestly don't think his hand is very strong - but it still may be stronger than yours.
 
Richyl2008

Richyl2008

Visionary
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Total posts
731
Definatley a fold on the river. Think about what he could be calling with on the flop. Most likely a king or a flush draw, an 8 is possible but pretty unlikely. By the river theres hardly anything you can beat that he probably called the flop with, even if for some instance you had a better kicker on the flop then more than half of those cards could have given him 2 pair.
 
B

Bentheman87

Guest
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Total posts
794
So what hand do you guys think he has? Flush would probably bet the turn right? Nut flush might check to trap I suppose. KQ would probably raise on the flop right? Definetly that hand would bet the turn. A set would not check on the turn, and two pair probably wouldn't either.

Result: I made the call, looking back it was a bad call really since he could have been easily value betting a stronger king and for some of the reasons others have said. His check on the turn is the main reason I called. Anyway he had 8 9 offsuit and I won the pot.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
So what hand do you guys think he has? Flush would probably bet the turn right? Nut flush might check to trap I suppose. KQ would probably raise on the flop right? Definetly that hand would bet the turn. A set would not check on the turn, and two pair probably wouldn't either.

Result: I made the call, looking back it was a bad call really since he could have been easily value betting a stronger king and for some of the reasons others have said. His check on the turn is the main reason I called. Anyway he had 8 9 offsuit and I won the pot.

LOL, I think he thought he was making a value bet. Pretty bad play by him.

And I just realized I read that board wrong. I thought it came 3 spades and a 4th on the turn. Hence my comment about his one spade beating you.

I know I've seen the results but me now knowing the board this isn't such a horrible call. This is QQ/JJ a lot of the time. If you had position on that turn and he checked it, it could easily have been a flush, but I don't see flushes checking behind on the turn that often. This could easily have been a set though or higher K, the check on the turn being for pot control. When you check the river after his check on the turn you signal that you don't have the flush, as the flush would be afraid of him checking behind again on the river and not getting value. So this actually looks a lot like AK/set much of the time.

I still think it's a fold, but not such a clear-cut horrible call as I first thought when I thought there were 4 spades out there. I think you see a lot of AK/2-pair/sets take this line on the flop, but you'd think AK would have raised preflop along with KK so we're really only afraid of 88/33 or 2-pair. I still don't understand this bet as with this action he had decent showdown value and the only better hand he's getting to fold is basically your hand right here. Horrible play by villain, decent play by you, and good result for you.
 
Top