Spew or standard? [25nl 6max]

Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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pokerstars Game #16879848118: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/04/20 - 22:19:21 (ET)
Table 'Griseldis II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: CrazyTltD ($24.90 in chips)
Seat 4: bobj5000 ($27.40 in chips)
Seat 5: losrayados ($26.40 in chips)
Seat 6: Emperor XIX ($24.20 in chips)
bobj5000: posts small blind $0.10
losrayados: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Emperor XIX [Ks Jd]
Emperor XIX: raises $0.50 to $0.75
CrazyTltD: folds
bobj5000: folds
losrayados: calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [Th 4d Jh]
losrayados: bets $1
Emperor XIX: raises $2 to $3
losrayados: raises $8 to $11

Now, I know this may seem like a very amateur hand to post but keep in mind that I'm primarily a tournament player and not really a cash player. When I HAVE played cash, 90% of my cash experience is 10nl which isn't really poker and I shove this bitch all day. lol

What does a reg generally have here? Assume no reads or stats other than guy plays decent amount of hands. he's not a maniac nor a nit
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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i just fold if he's not dumb or a maniac. you raised UTG and raised his donk bet, so even 4handed your line looks pretty strong. his range for doing this should be like JT/44/big draws/possibly a TT he chose not to 3bet pre. this is never a worse J if he has any clue what he's doing, so you're either slightly ahead or way behind, unless he's on a really reckless bluff
 
X

xCashin_inx

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This is tough because we dont have much info on the player, how were you playing at the table? Loose or tight? If you were playing loose then I would expect one of 4 hands, either J4,10-4, J10 or 44. He wouldnt raise that much with any type of draw no matter how strong it is. If you were playing tight he might be trying to get you off a hand by bullying you but I still dont like this spot here, who knows what this guy is playing with if he plays alot of hands. If this were me I would fold here just because so many things have you beat, if he played a garbage hand like J4 and caught two pair he has you beat or if he slow played a big PP he has you beat. I just dont like the situation your in and personally I would get out of the hand here. Your either a slight favorite or a big dog, my move would be get out while you can.

Im very curious as to what he had though.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Shoving here is really bad. I think combu's range is spot-on, and when we get called we're usually in pretty bad shape.

"small hand, small pot, big hand, big pot" is a mantra you should really get used to with regards to rings. KJ for top pair here is somewhere in between, probably closer to a small hand.

Occasionally I'll actually just call the flop bet since it saves us from getting 3-bet off our hand when he's got a big draw, and lets us get away from our hand cheaply if he fires big on any turn really. A reg generally won't donk twice that strong without a hand that beats you. Raising's fine but we have to do it with the intention of keeping the pot small if he calls. Shoving over the top of his raise obv doesn't accomplish that goal.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I almost called the flop cuz I hate donk bets. But I decided to raise specifiically to fold if re raised which is what I did. I just wanted to know if I should be raising this flop a lot.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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raise/fold is best here against villains who are kinda passive and stationy, cause they're the type who are calling with lots of worse, calling with a lot of their strong draws to see if they hit, and raising when they have better. the more aggressive (and/or good) he is, the more i tend to just call
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

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I'd fold. Too many hands have you beat.

No stats on losrayados, but lots against CrazyTltD. He's pretty solid, but not aggressive enough.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I'm a showdown monkey, and I still fold this without even blinking after he re-raises the flop.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I understand folding but should I make a habit of raising his flop bet? that's the main question. I meant to edit out his raise to avoid any results oriented thinking but for some reason drew a blank while highlighting everything. lol
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I call half the time and raise the other half. I make those decisions based on feel, really, which I realize is wholly unhelpful to you, but it's what I do.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I call half the time and raise the other half. I make those decisions based on feel, really, which I realize is wholly unhelpful to you, but it's what I do.

ha, same here, only I feel the raise more often because I'm not amazing at post flop play so I like to try to end the hand early. Unfortunately this often results in large pots to small hands, hence negating the small hand-small pot theory (which I wholly agree with, but due to my style that's highly tournament oriented I tend to ignore)
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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As others have said, I usually raise this on reads. Calling stations, and hyper aggressive players tend to get raised. Generally the better & tighter the player, the less I raise.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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An interesting dynamic in this hand is that the board has a lot of draws on it. This makes raising the flop and checking behind on the turn a less attractive possibility, and was something I just started thinking about more closely when I rode my bike to work (it's what I think about when I ride my bike, what can I say).

I now think raising is a mistake against all but the most straightforward of players that we can trust to always represent exactly their strength, i.e. who would call our raise with all hands that we beat and only raise us when we're (well) behind.

His range when he bets the flop is,

1) Pair-type-hands. QJ, AJ, AT, J8, etc.
2) Twopair/sets.
3) Draws.
4) Complete bluffs like K7 that just want to take a stab.

Against pairs, we want to raise. Against 2p/sets, we want to either get away cheaply or see a cheap showdown. Versus draws, we want to get more money in now, but against bluffs, we want him to keep betting.

The difference between the trustworthy and tricky players is not what their range is after they bet, it's how they react when we raise. A trustworthy player might bluff at the pot, but not re-raise bluff. He will reraise with his strong hands, but just call with his weaker holdings. And he will fold his bluffs when we raise.

But since we raise with the intention of folding if our opponent comes over the top, it seems to me we have to focus our raises on players whose "over-the-top" raises we can trust.
 
The Shrog

The Shrog

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What kind of hand are you hoping villian is holding? QJ? Flush draw? these are essentially the only hands you have beat--unless a possible KQ trying to get you out of the pot, still thinking he has plenty of outs on the turn. I'd say you're behind here more than you're ahead and you could get away from this hand fairly cheaply with a fold.
 
O

Ohnima Mumie

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I´d fold too because there could be better hands. AA KK QQ JJ AJ
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I just can't see folding a J high flop with KJ after only a single bet .. seems really weak to me. I'm not sure of the double barrel percentage at this level so if he is bluffing, I'm not sure if it'll cost more to call down for cheap or to raise right away to set my own price (which is what I did obv).

The question isn't whether or not to fold, it's whether the raise is correct against regs/unknowns at this level.

Thanks for the input guys, keep it coming!
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Folding to the donkbet is out of the question, in my opinion. I agree that the question between raising and calling is tricky, but if he wants to bet his weaker hand for you, let him do the betting. If he checks the turn, bet it. If he bets the turn, call it. His river bets will likely be polarized between bluffs and monsters, but guesswork and his betsizing is going to be the question for the river.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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Against an unknown, this is a pretty standard call IMO. I would explain why, but FP & others have pretty much nailed this thread down.
 
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