River betting w/ 2 pair 50NL 6max

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xCashin_inx

Guest
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Total posts
152
Not really asking for anything besides wondering if the check on the river was a bad play, I figure if he puts it in im going to call regardless because of the size of the pot so if he wants to check it with a better hand im going to save myself some money. Bad play or OK to check on the river?

pokerstars Game #17582417936: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/05/21 - 03:18:53 (ET)
Table 'Praxidike V' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Trixy&False ($48.50 in chips)
Seat 2: mixel021 ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: brittney18 ($35 in chips)
Seat 4: jiser1 ($6.80 in chips)
Seat 5: Fishershark ($74.20 in chips)
Seat 6: xCaShiN_iNx ($105.10 in chips)
jiser1: posts small blind $0.25
Fishershark: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to xCaShiN_iNx [Kd 8d]
xCaShiN_iNx said, "i dont think u were any good there"
xCaShiN_iNx: calls $0.50
xCaShiN_iNx said, "too much to call though"
Fishershark said, "king high good?"
Trixy&False: raises $2 to $2.50
mixel021: folds
xCaShiN_iNx said, "haha at the moment yes"
brittney18: calls $2.50
jiser1: folds
Fishershark: folds
xCaShiN_iNx: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Kh 8s Qd]
Fishershark said, "i like putting a lo tof my stack in out of position against a tag"
xCaShiN_iNx said, "king high flush"
xCaShiN_iNx: bets $4
Trixy&False: folds
brittney18: calls $4
*** TURN *** [Kh 8s Qd] [3s]
xCaShiN_iNx: bets $1
brittney18: raises $2 to $3
xCaShiN_iNx: raises $10 to $13
xCaShiN_iNx said, "I CANNOT BET TONIGHT"
xCaShiN_iNx said, "GEEZ"
brittney18: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [Kh 8s Qd 3s] [Jc]
xCaShiN_iNx: checks
Fishershark said, "brit has AT obv"
Trixy&False said, "RIGGED"
xCaShiN_iNx said, "I keep hittin the wrong buttons"
brittney18: checks
brittney18 said, "woohooooo"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xCaShiN_iNx: shows [Kd 8d] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
brittney18: mucks hand
xCaShiN_iNx collected $40.20 from pot
Fishershark said, "lol wtf river check"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $42.25 | Rake $2.05
Board [Kh 8s Qd 3s Jc]
Seat 1: Trixy&False folded on the Flop
Seat 2: mixel021 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: brittney18 (button) mucked [Jh Th]
Seat 4: jiser1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Fishershark (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: xCaShiN_iNx showed [Kd 8d] and won ($40.20) with two pair, Kings and Eights
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Besides the painfully obvious preflop fold out of position with an easily dominated hand, I think the hand played out okay. Once brittney calls the turn, there's not that much left in his/her range that you have a great edge on besides busted draws (which won't really call a river bet anyway).
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
hands that beat you on the river:

- sets, but they would most likely 4-bet the turn. Unlikely
- straights, but that would mean villain paid you turn 3-bet with inside straight draw. Very unlikely
- Higher two pairs: KQ and KJ. Possible. they will call a bet or bet themselves and you lose you stack.

Hands that you beat:

- Other kings. AK, KT or K9, I guess. Those will pay a river bet but not bet themselves.
- Busted draws. JT, AJ, especially if they are spades. Those will fold a river bet but might decide to bluff if they have suicidal tendencies. Most likely will just give up the hand.

So the only relevant question is how to extract more value from the hands you beat. Given the stack sizes, I don't think busted draws bluff enough to justify a check. you get more value from making the other kings pay.

Given what villain had, it's irrelevant, he would not pay anyway.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Given the stack sizes, I don't think busted draws bluff enough to justify a check. you get more value from making the other kings pay.
I like the way you think.

Look at it this way: If AK, KQ, KJ, KT, K9 and K8 are all in villain's range (and for the purpose of this exercise, we ignore completely the risk of a set or a straight), then we find that:

Hands we beat
AK (8 combos), KT (8 combos) and K9 (8 combos) = 32.

Hands we lose to
KQ (6 combos), KJ (6 combos) = 12

... and if we throw in sets as well...

88 (1), QQ (3), KK (1) = 5

... we still don't get anywhere near the number of combos that we beat.

Of course, if your opponent is sensible, then KT and K9 don't make much sense, and if we remove those from the equation we're left with only AK that we beat, which swings the obvious bet to an obvious check.
It really depends on how loose our opponent is. What are our stacks like on the river? I really can't be bothered to sit and sum it up when there are perfectly good hand converters out there.

Also, don't include the results. It just makes you look silly.
 
F

feitr

Legend
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
Well mere words cannot describe the trainwreck that was the preflop play. Basically AK is the only hand that can call our river bet that we beat since all other Ks are too small to make the preflop call or hit a higher 2 pair. Still, seeing as you called with K8 OOP then called a raise OOP perhaps K9 and KT are hands villain could have. I don't think a hand like KQ or a set is checking this river at all...if he had a hand like that i'd expect a 4 bet on the turn. So an argument could probably be made for a small value bet on the river because villain's line is very odd for a hand that has you beat (villain calling with JTs probably means they are pretty loose so KT/K9 probably are possible), but checking is fine because AK and a busted straight draw could be about all you beat, of which only the AK would pay you off obviously.
 
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