*@%#& QQ

insolitude

insolitude

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Joined
Jan 2, 2008
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255
At what point do you just write off a starting hand, no matter how promising? I can't tell you how many times QQ has failed me AFTER a weak flop.

Any thoughts/advice?

PokerStars Game #15198669980: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/02/10 - 16:12:55 (ET)
Table 'Chalonge V' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: SchulleS75 ($10.46 in chips)
Seat 2: Pedeh ($0.63 in chips)
Seat 3: Dizzy Fuzz ($3.39 in chips)
Seat 4: insolitude ($4.27 in chips)
Seat 5: M Huffman ($1.50 in chips)
Seat 6: CptTomMantel ($3.84 in chips)
Seat 7: lecruducu ($4.32 in chips)
Seat 9: Seemuschel ($1.15 in chips)
insolitude: posts small blind $0.01
M Huffman: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to insolitude [Qh Qc]
CptTomMantel: folds
lecruducu: raises $0.06 to $0.08
Seemuschel: folds
Seemuschel leaves the table
xvanx joins the table at seat #9
SchulleS75: folds
Pedeh: folds
Dizzy Fuzz: calls $0.08
insolitude: raises $0.24 to $0.32
M Huffman: folds
lecruducu: calls $0.24
Dizzy Fuzz: calls $0.24
*** FLOP *** [Jc 8c 2h]
insolitude: bets $0.72
lecruducu: calls $0.72
Dizzy Fuzz: raises $0.98 to $1.70
insolitude: raises $0.98 to $2.68
lecruducu: calls $1.96
Dizzy Fuzz: raises $0.39 to $3.07 and is all-in
insolitude: calls $0.39
lecruducu: calls $0.39
*** TURN *** [Jc 8c 2h] [As]
insolitude: checks
lecruducu: bets $0.93 and is all-in
insolitude: calls $0.88 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Jc 8c 2h As] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
insolitude: shows [Qh Qc] (a pair of Queens)
lecruducu: shows [Jd Js] (three of a kind, Jacks)
lecruducu collected $1.71 from side pot
Dizzy Fuzz: shows [9c Tc] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
Dizzy Fuzz collected $9.69 from main pot
Dizzy Fuzz said, "nhs"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $11.95 Main pot $9.69. Side pot $1.71. | Rake $0.55
Board [Jc 8c 2h As 7s]
Seat 1: SchulleS75 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Pedeh folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Dizzy Fuzz (button) showed [9c Tc] and won ($9.69) with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 4: insolitude (small blind) showed [Qh Qc] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 5: M Huffman (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: CptTomMantel folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: lecruducu showed [Jd Js] and won ($1.71) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 9: Seemuschel folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
S

switch0723

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realise that JJJ>QQ. hehe only messing, at these stakes absolutely nothing you can do there, you palyed it right. At higher stakes ther can be an arguement for folding, but not here
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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There was no way for you to move these players off their hands. Dizzy flopped a S8 flush draw and lecrud flopped trips. You might have been able to get away from it after your flop bet was raised but that's awfully hard to do. I don't think you would have gotten rid of lecrud even if you had shoved pre-flop (which would have been a poor play itself).
 
NuRelic

NuRelic

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I can't necessarily agree with the previous sentiments that have been outlined. I don’t think its appropriate to discount players at lower (and Micro-levels) simply because the stakes are small. Instead here's how you might have been able to get away from this hand as has been alluded to:

PokerStars Game #15198669980: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/02/10 - 16:12:55 (ET)
Table 'Chalonge V' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: SchulleS75 ($10.46 in chips)
Seat 2: Pedeh ($0.63 in chips)
Seat 3: Dizzy Fuzz ($3.39 in chips)
Seat 4: insolitude ($4.27 in chips)
Seat 5: M Huffman ($1.50 in chips)
Seat 6: CptTomMantel ($3.84 in chips)
Seat 7: lecruducu ($4.32 in chips)
Seat 9: Seemuschel ($1.15 in chips)
insolitude: posts small blind $0.01
M Huffman: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to insolitude [:qh4::qc4:]
CptTomMantel: folds
lecruducu: raises $0.06 to $0.08
Seemuschel: folds
SchulleS75: folds
Pedeh: folds
Dizzy Fuzz: calls $0.08
insolitude: raises $0.24 to $0.32
Good raise here to thin the heard.

M Huffman: folds
lecruducu: calls $0.24
Dizzy Fuzz: calls $0.24
Several things to take note of right here; (1) ledcruducu was raising from Early MP (I don't know what your read is on him, but this isn't something to be cautious off [Range of hands: AJ+ and any PP], (2) Dizzy Fuzz is desperately trying to get into pot weak [Range of hands: Suited connectors and small PP], (3) your in a multi-way hand and OOP to both of your opponents and (4) the three of you have relatively comparable chip stacks. What all that means is that you will need to play cautiously and focus your efforts on looking for unnatural signals of strength from your opponents. (i.e. Danger Will Robinson, Danger!)
Playing OOP is a serious disadvantage, but there are ways to turn that disadvantage into an advantage...

*** FLOP *** [:jc4::8c4::2h4:]
You've really got to look at this board and figure out how to use it to your advantage. Although you are OOP, there is a serious FDT along with a SD threat and knowing that there's 3 players in on the Flop this is the kind of situation that should prompt anyone with a hand that's better than QQ to expose info about there hand early on.

insolitude: bets $0.72
I really like this Feeler bet; There's $0.98 in the pot and you throw out $0.72. It's about 3/4 of the pot (perfect) and that makes it enough to force people into action but not so much as to make it an easy insta-call for your opponents but it's also not so much that you should feel pot-committed if Re-Raised. Your want to be looking to get some info from them with this bet.

lecruducu: calls $0.72
This isn't necessarily bad news, but with so much money already in the pot, this should throw up a big red flag!
<Side Note: lecruducu's cold calling with his Set of Jacks when there's 2 serious draws out there and 2 other players in on the hand is just deplorable!>

Dizzy Fuzz: raises $0.98 to $1.70
This is where you need to really re-evaluate where your at in the hand. There is presently $2.42 in the pot before this action and Dizzy Fuzz looks down at his OE Straight & Flush draws and opts to push. He prolly figures he's favored to win the hand and wants to juice it a little for maximum profit.

insolitude: raises $0.98 to $2.68
You are left in a squeeze play with both players signaling strong commitments to the hand. Because your OOP, you need to realize that you are in a serious fix. But you do have enough information to get away from the hand at this point. Your initial Post Flop raise was enough to force the issue and the responses you've been given with a Cold Call and a Re-Raise should serve as enough info for you to let it go. You will now be forced to re-act to the Post-Flop aggressor while OOP and with another player left to act the squeeze play is completed. Your now in a corner and you have no way of knowing where your at in the hand. You might think lecruducu is on a draw, but the Re-Raise from Dizzy Fuzz should signal a Set.

This is a tough but necessary FOLD. You threw out a good Feeler bet and you've been given enough information about the strength of your opponents hands and they've effectively told you that they are both holding good hands. Fold because (1) they've got position on you, (2) they've signaled strength, (3) your caught in a squeeze play and (4) with comparable chip stacks any mistake you make here will likely be costly. Let it go.

Unfortunately, you are not convinced with the info given and push, thereby Training your Queens.

lecruducu: calls $1.96
Obviously, he's just a horrible player; smooth calling his set with so many draws and players in on the hand. Just out of curiosity did you note him being a Call Station, TPS or LPS?

Dizzy Fuzz: raises $0.39 to $3.07 and is all-in
Obvious Insta-Shove with only $0.39 left.

insolitude: calls $0.39
lecruducu: calls $0.39
Obvious Insta-Calls being Pot Committed

*** TURN *** [:jc4::8c4::2h4:]:as4:
insolitude: checks
Just outta curiosity, did you check here because you were afraid of the Ace or because you knew you were beat? I only ask because there's still a serious Club-Flush draw and with so much money already in the pot it is now worth going after ... but you don't.

lecruducu: bets $0.93 and is all-in
Foregone conclusion.

insolitude: calls $0.88 and is all-in
Echo!
*** RIVER *** [:jc4::8c4::2h4::as4:] :7s4:
*** SHOW DOWN ***
insolitude: shows [:qh4::qc4:] (a pair of Queens)
lecruducu: shows [:jd4::js4:] (three of a kind, Jacks)
lecruducu collected $1.71 from side pot
Dizzy Fuzz: shows [:9c4::10c4:] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
Dizzy Fuzz collected $9.69 from main pot

If your multi-tabling this should have been an even easier fold (because you would have needed to seriously ramped up how tight you were playing. With one (or a few tables) you will need to be more conscious of the signals your opponents are sending you and act accordingly. Likeiwse, you will need to seriously re-evaluate your hand in comparison to the board in order to determine whether you are still as strong as you thought you were a few moments before.
 
P

phatjose

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222
In addition to what NuRelic said, the lecruducu character is exactly like most of the people I see at $5NL on stars. Since I downloaded the beta version of PT3 (can't believe I went this long without it), I've noticed the vast majority of people at this level have very little to no aggression at all. The fact that someone who has no aggression at all is willing to raise preflop should indicate an even stronger hand than what NuRelic is giving him credit for.

I think I would have lead out for .60 instead of .72 on the flop. You are still giving incorrect odds to draw to a straight or flush, but making it a bit cheaper on yourself on a very dangerous board.

NuRelic hit the nail on the head though with dizzy fuzz. I probably would have put him on a set here and not the oesfd, but I think this is where you fold it and feel comfortable doing so. As others have said, big hands call for big pots. QQ on this board is not really a big hand.
 
insolitude

insolitude

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Jan 2, 2008
Total posts
255
Damn, this is some great feedback NuRelic. First of all, let me clarify where I stand with QQ. I now have PT3 and my PS HH from 1/1/08 (which is basically when I started playing cash games). As far as wins go, QQ ranks 6th (%) and 13th ($). So I guess I need to find a new $&@!#* hand...

there is a serious FDT

Flush Draw T...?

Let it go.

Well said. I think my problem with this kind of hand is I get married to it PF and when I see a flop with no over cards and no pairs, I get even more married to it. After 19k+ hands I've actually seen more SD (%) with QQ than AA. Not by much, but still...

I don't have a good handle on player profiling, particularly with multi-tabling (usually 3-4 tables). I expect PT3 will help me with that.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback, this has been very helpful
 
NuRelic

NuRelic

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Flush Draw T...?
FDT = Flush Draw Threat

I think my problem with this kind of hand is I get married to it PF and when I see a flop with no over cards and no pairs, I get even more married to it.

"...get even more married to it." = Train your hand (i.e Training). Kinda like getting tunnel vision or putting blinders on. You simply lower you head and try to power thru without re-evaluating.
 
insolitude

insolitude

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Jan 2, 2008
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255
Exactly.

I have been using PT3 to replay my worst single-hand losses to see if I can find any patterns. My two biggest-losing single hands were net -$10.xx each. Care to hazard a guess as to my hole cards (both hands had the same hold cards)?
 
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switch0723

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Sep 2, 2007
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^^^^^^ the green four from uno and the bridge instuction card?
 
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