Problems with premium pocket pairs.

[Ortwin1989]

Hello,

since the beginning of my poker play I lose the most money when playing premium Pocket pairs.

With premium pairs like AA-QQ i can't decide when ist is the right decision to call/ raise or fold...therefore I mostly call/raise until I'm all in.

Below is a typical play from me...I thought in the moment I had the nuts, because of 2 pair, but I clearly didn't - even every hand with a 4 in it had beat me.

Do you have any tipps how to optimise my decision making process when playing premium pocket pairs?


pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 5 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

Neuttt (UTG): $3.43 (172 bb)
Uazbi (CO): $2.09 (105 bb)
Anton Vulyk (BU): $1.89 (95 bb)
Ortwin1989 (SB): $2.00 (100 bb)
maurom332 (BB): $2.05 (103 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ortwin1989) is SB with Q♠ Q♦
Neuttt (UTG) raises to $0.05, Uazbi (CO) 3-bets to $0.18, 1 fold, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.17, 2 players fold

Flop: ($0.43) 2♣ 4♥ 4♠ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.31, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.05) T♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.77, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.77

River: ($2.59) 7♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.83 (all-in), Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.74 (all-in)

Total pot: $4.07 (Rake: $0.14)

Showdown:
Uazbi (CO) shows K♦ K♥ (two pair, Kings and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 92%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Ortwin1989 (SB) shows Q♠ Q♦ (two pair, Queens and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 8%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

Uazbi (CO) wins $3.93

 

[Luvepoker]

Hello,

since the beginning of my poker play I lose the most money when playing premium Pocket pairs.

With premium pairs like AA-QQ i can't decide when ist is the right decision to call/ raise or fold...therefore I mostly call/raise until I'm all in.

Below is a typical play from me...I thought in the moment I had the nuts, because of 2 pair, but I clearly didn't - even every hand with a 4 in it had beat me.

Do you have any tipps how to optimise my decision making process when playing premium pocket pairs?


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 5 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

Neuttt (UTG): $3.43 (172 bb)
Uazbi (CO): $2.09 (105 bb)
Anton Vulyk (BU): $1.89 (95 bb)
Ortwin1989 (SB): $2.00 (100 bb)
maurom332 (BB): $2.05 (103 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ortwin1989) is SB with Q♠ Q♦
Neuttt (UTG) raises to $0.05, Uazbi (CO) 3-bets to $0.18, 1 fold, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.17, 2 players fold

Flop: ($0.43) 2♣ 4♥ 4♠ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.31, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.05) T♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.77, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.77

River: ($2.59) 7♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.83 (all-in), Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.74 (all-in)

Total pot: $4.07 (Rake: $0.14)

Showdown:
Uazbi (CO) shows K♦ K♥ (two pair, Kings and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 92%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Ortwin1989 (SB) shows Q♠ Q♦ (two pair, Queens and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 8%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

Uazbi (CO) wins $3.93

This is a good thing for you to work on. To many people will vastly over play a big pair. This hand is probably not the best of hand to use but lets go over it. FYI, I am more of a tournament player not cash.

Preflop you played it great but you could have gone with the 4bet but Im good with the call. . He bets out and you call. AT this point your only loosing to Aces Kings A4s and pocket 2's and 4's in my thinking. Just not a lot of 4's that are calling the 3 bet.

The turn T does set things up for us. We check and he bets big again. We check and he bets again. Would he 3 bet A4s and AT? Maybe the AT amd he bets again. What is he betting here that we beat. Jacks and AT and maybe AKs clubs.

The river completed the back door flush draw and he bets again after already seeing you call a 3bet and 2 other bets post flop.Here is where you can possible get away form it. He 3bet and I dont know what range you have him on but ask yourself this question before you call next time. What is he betting that I beat here? Would he still be betting jacks after all you calls? I think he might check behind if he is thinking about what hand you had. Is he betting flushes, Yup. Ace and Kings probably. I would have called very likely on this hand the way it played out. I would not have been happy about it though.

 

[Ortwin1989]

hmmm but if I have pocket pair, must I not assume everytime the villain has a set or triplet oder two pairs? Even in the micro stakes ppl play every crap hand...so it is very difficult to decide I find it easy to put people on ranges when I have draw and what my chances are to win the hand when I complete the draw. Or when I have a set or triplet determain my chance of winning...but pocket pairs are tricky for me.

Like in this hand...he got lucky with Q5. He was a real maniac and betted every hand big...had it 4th or 5th rebuy at this point in the game...


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

xp1500 (UTG): $2.08 (104 bb)
PlayerZs (MP): $2.00 (100 bb)
peio123 (CO): $1.91 (96 bb)
Ortwin1989 (BU): $1.88 (94 bb)
jaycoolxo (SB): $3.63 (182 bb)
Grab_mbytheP (BB): $5.62 (281 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ortwin1989) is BTN with K♥ K♣
xp1500 (UTG) raises to $0.60, 2 players fold, Ortwin1989 (BU) calls $0.60, 2 players fold

Flop: ($1.23) 9♠ 5♣ 5♠ (2 players)
xp1500 (UTG) bets $1.48 (all-in), Ortwin1989 (BU) calls $1.28 (all-in)

Turn: ($3.79) 4♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($3.79) 7♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $3.79 (Rake: $0.13)

Showdown:
xp1500 (UTG) shows 5♦ Q♠ (three of a kind, Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Ortwin1989 (BU) shows K♥ K♣ (two pair, Kings and Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

xp1500 (UTG) wins $3.66

 

[caracaski220]

caracaski220

I think it is probably a mistake to not raise with premium pairs preflop ( unless you are balancing or tapping), as you make the mistake of letting in ramdom hands that can draw and beat you. You really want to be just heads up or aginst 2 players.

 

[Luvepoker]

hmmm but if I have pocket pair, must I not assume everytime the villain has a set or triplet oder two pairs? Even in the micro stakes ppl play every crap hand...so it is very difficult to decide I find it easy to put people on ranges when I have draw and what my chances are to win the hand when I complete the draw. Or when I have a set or triplet determain my chance of winning...but pocket pairs are tricky for me.

Like in this hand...he got lucky with Q5. He was a real maniac and betted every hand big...had it 4th or 5th rebuy at this point in the game...


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

xp1500 (UTG): $2.08 (104 bb)
PlayerZs (MP): $2.00 (100 bb)
peio123 (CO): $1.91 (96 bb)
Ortwin1989 (BU): $1.88 (94 bb)
jaycoolxo (SB): $3.63 (182 bb)
Grab_mbytheP (BB): $5.62 (281 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ortwin1989) is BTN with K♥ K♣
xp1500 (UTG) raises to $0.60, 2 players fold, Ortwin1989 (BU) calls $0.60, 2 players fold

Flop: ($1.23) 9♠ 5♣ 5♠ (2 players)
xp1500 (UTG) bets $1.48 (all-in), Ortwin1989 (BU) calls $1.28 (all-in)

Turn: ($3.79) 4♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($3.79) 7♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $3.79 (Rake: $0.13)

Showdown:
xp1500 (UTG) shows 5♦ Q♠ (three of a kind, Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Ortwin1989 (BU) shows K♥ K♣ (two pair, Kings and Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

xp1500 (UTG) wins $3.66

The problem is you must always question what they have but depending on the player your against what is possible, probably, unlikely and inpossable.

Most players will never have Q5o in that situation, against a guy like this there is nothing you can do but buckle up for one hell of a wild ride. Against a player like him you really can never get away from this hand. Lucky for us players like him are far and few in between. FYI, if he is that crazy i would have 3bet jammed. Yeah he calls with junk But i want him in these bad spots and sometime they can fold the trash. 30BB open raise by him WOW>

Micro or high stakes have one thing in common. A pair is just a pair. Yes people are more likely to play more junk in the micro but we want that.Yes its a pair and a great one but depending on the player, the texture of the board and there reaction is what we need to read. Aces are great but on a flop of T98 2 suited and the turn give the possible flush and the guy is raising you must learn to be able to fold the hand. How many time I have seen flopped straights or 2 pairs and 150BB are shoved into the pot by the guy with aces just to wonder why they lost.

If a player is wild and loose you need to gamble more but against many players and tight ones a over pair is great but not worth putting your whole stack in against.

 

[eetenor]

hmmm but if I have pocket pair, must I not assume everytime the villain has a set or triplet oder two pairs? Even in the micro stakes ppl play every crap hand...so it is very difficult to decide I find it easy to put people on ranges when I have draw and what my chances are to win the hand when I complete the draw. Or when I have a set or triplet determain my chance of winning...but pocket pairs are tricky for me.

Like in this hand...he got lucky with Q5. He was a real maniac and betted every hand big...had it 4th or 5th rebuy at this point in the game...


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

xp1500 (UTG): $2.08 (104 bb)
PlayerZs (MP): $2.00 (100 bb)
peio123 (CO): $1.91 (96 bb)
Ortwin1989 (BU): $1.88 (94 bb)
jaycoolxo (SB): $3.63 (182 bb)
Grab_mbytheP (BB): $5.62 (281 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ortwin1989) is BTN with K♥ K♣
xp1500 (UTG) raises to $0.60, 2 players fold, Ortwin1989 (BU) calls $0.60, 2 players fold

Flop: ($1.23) 9♠ 5♣ 5♠ (2 players)
xp1500 (UTG) bets $1.48 (all-in), Ortwin1989 (BU) calls $1.28 (all-in)

Turn: ($3.79) 4♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($3.79) 7♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $3.79 (Rake: $0.13)

Showdown:
xp1500 (UTG) shows 5♦ Q♠ (three of a kind, Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Ortwin1989 (BU) shows K♥ K♣ (two pair, Kings and Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 87%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

xp1500 (UTG) wins $3.66

Thank you for posting

It is good that you want to improve your skills and hand reviews are a great way to do that.

The two hand reviews you have included are not indicative of you making a large mistake but on variance.

In the first if you thought the V would play JJ or AT 99 this way or bluff the river with Ac or Kc hands then the river call was fine. We want to study 3 bet pots more to know if the above is accurate though.

Hand 2 is a so what hand. We trapped a maniac they sucked out so what. That is the mindset we want in hand 2 so we do not waste time worrying about how we played it


Hope this helps

 

[Ortwin1989]

Thanks for the rely guys...helped me alot!

 

[mara2259]

I don't consider myself a high-end player and mostly play single-table tournaments at lower limits. My starting hand requirements do not change from tournament to tournament. And then some regularity was discovered that my results do not depend at all on the strength of the starting hands. Literally yesterday, for some half an hour, I flew out of several tournaments with pocket QQ. K K. AK suited against marginal hands. And on another day, my hand 72 suddenly turned into a monster and only once out of five lost to a higher full house. I don’t know what the probability of such an event is, but for well-known reasons, I did not participate in the game. It would have been too much even for a maniac, besides, my position at the table at that moment was not conducive to this. I don't know how to feel about this, but the fact remains that it is very difficult to win if the flop and cards on other streets are not on your side. To read that after a solid raise against your preflop monster, someone calls you with a trash hand and then noticeably improves, at least to me seems unlikely. Moreover, very often such confrontations end with an all-in preflop.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

Hello,

since the beginning of my poker play I lose the most money when playing premium Pocket pairs.

With premium pairs like AA-QQ i can't decide when ist is the right decision to call/ raise or fold...therefore I mostly call/raise until I'm all in.

Below is a typical play from me...I thought in the moment I had the nuts, because of 2 pair, but I clearly didn't - even every hand with a 4 in it had beat me.

Do you have any tipps how to optimise my decision making process when playing premium pocket pairs?


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 5 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

Neuttt (UTG): $3.43 (172 bb)
Uazbi (CO): $2.09 (105 bb)
Anton Vulyk (BU): $1.89 (95 bb)
Ortwin1989 (SB): $2.00 (100 bb)
maurom332 (BB): $2.05 (103 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ortwin1989) is SB with Q♠ Q♦
Neuttt (UTG) raises to $0.05, Uazbi (CO) 3-bets to $0.18, 1 fold, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.17, 2 players fold

Flop: ($0.43) 2♣ 4♥ 4♠ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.31, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.05) T♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.77, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.77

River: ($2.59) 7♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.83 (all-in), Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.74 (all-in)

Total pot: $4.07 (Rake: $0.14)

Showdown:
Uazbi (CO) shows K♦ K♥ (two pair, Kings and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 92%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Ortwin1989 (SB) shows Q♠ Q♦ (two pair, Queens and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 8%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

Uazbi (CO) wins $3.93

First problem is a lot of folks especially beginners shouldn't be playing short handed. It forces you to play too many hands and lets you think you can get away with playing certain hands. So unless you know without a doubt what starting hands you should be playing and from what seat and WHY you play those hands and the discipline to fold hands you shouldn't be playing in those seats then I wouldn't suggest playing short handed, issue #1.

To the hand: You're playing 1/2 cent. Utg raises it probably raised with Ace x. the next one raises to 18 cents so that's 9x the BB so UBER BIG ALARMS SHOULD BE GOING OFF!!!!!!!

Even playing at such a low level, I'd say they're doing it with tens+ and the tighter your read on them then its going to be JJ, QQ, KK or AA. The utg more than likely had Ax so I'm not a fan of them having aces and Ak even short handed and definitely not AQ since you have two of the ladies and that's a really out there play with AQ by raising so much so its basically KK or JJ.

Could it be a 7s-9s? I don't think so with a 3bet like that, even at that level they should recognize that you're going to have a lot of overs on the flop so its not the right idea to bet so much unless they're just an aggressive clueless donk but you might run into that person at that level, lol.

The other thing is when they raise like that they're raising that way because UTG gave info that they had a hand. THAT'S THE WHOLE KEY TO YOUR HAND HERE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR HAND OR THE RESULTS.

Its like you're so focused on YOUR hand, that YOU lost with a premium hand that you're not paying attention to the positional play and all the information that was given to you.

This is what you need to work on: pay more attention to position and what your opponents are doing!!!! They were going after the UTG since they raised and guessed UTG had a hand and you weren't on their radar until you called, lol. That's not a steal attempt or some silly play raising that much.

When they're raising like that its a complete give away that its something really, really nasty unless they're just an uber clueless bingo donk. When you call it I bet it was a surprise to them and they were happy.

So the flop is 244 rainbow. They're not raising to 18 cents with 2s or A4. They cbet so that won't give you any info but before you enter the hand should recognize its going to cost you 18 cents plus a continuation bet of at least half pot or a pot sized bet to see how they play the turn to get any info on what they have.

You're talking about 18+9cents/3cents is 9 orbits or 18+18=36cents or 12 orbits and you WILL STILL HAVE ZERO INFO ON THEIR HAND UNLESS YOU DID WHAT I DID EARLIER TO PUT THEM ON A HAND!!!

Putting out 9-12 orbits and not knowing where you are isn't going to be profitable in the long run so you have to move away from just looking at what you have and work on situational poker ie what your opponents are doing and telling you.

Another clue that they have a monster is they didn't bet the pot but 2x the pot so they told you what they had preflop and again on the flop. And again, unless they're uber, crazy bingo aggressive donks then they're playing the two cards they have and telling you its something very nasty and you have to listen!!

The rest of the streets are meaningless. Their hand was made before the flop and they told you so. The rainbow board and it developing into a straight or flush is meaningless. The only reason why you haven't shoved is because you're scared of a King or Ace coming but you're not considering that they already might have them in their hand. You're just going by what you see and not going by what's happening. I'm sounding like a broken record, lol so I'll stop.

Recap: Consider what I said about playing shorthanded and starting hands, unless you feel like you know starting hands and what position to play them from then ignore this.

Work on your understanding of position and the benefits of position like the info you could gather before entering a pot

Work on preplanning a hand. You should have realized that pot was going to cost a lot in BBs to play. And I want you to start seeing thing in terms of BBs and how many hands you're giving up to play hands like that.

You should be going by how many BBs you won and not by how much in cash you won. Go by the BBs to highlight how much a hand is going to cost you and what you're going to give up to play a hand, or how many orbits around the table you're giving up put another way. I think that might make you see things a little differently.

Uber long post, GL.

 

[DiegoRamos]

First problem is a lot of folks especially beginners shouldn't be playing short handed. It forces you to play too many hands and lets you think you can get away with playing certain hands. So unless you know without a doubt what starting hands you should be playing and from what seat and WHY you play those hands and the discipline to fold hands you shouldn't be playing in those seats then I wouldn't suggest playing short handed, issue #1.

To the hand: You're playing 1/2 cent. Utg raises it probably raised with Ace x. the next one raises to 18 cents so that's 9x the BB so UBER BIG ALARMS SHOULD BE GOING OFF!!!!!!!

Even playing at such a low level, I'd say they're doing it with tens+ and the tighter your read on them then its going to be JJ, QQ, KK or AA. The utg more than likely had Ax so I'm not a fan of them having aces and Ak even short handed and definitely not AQ since you have two of the ladies and that's a really out there play with AQ by raising so much so its basically KK or JJ.

Could it be a 7s-9s? I don't think so with a 3bet like that, even at that level they should recognize that you're going to have a lot of overs on the flop so its not the right idea to bet so much unless they're just an aggressive clueless donk but you might run into that person at that level, lol.

The other thing is when they raise like that they're raising that way because UTG gave info that they had a hand. THAT'S THE WHOLE KEY TO YOUR HAND HERE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR HAND OR THE RESULTS.

Its like you're so focused on YOUR hand, that YOU lost with a premium hand that you're not paying attention to the positional play and all the information that was given to you.

This is what you need to work on: pay more attention to position and what your opponents are doing!!!! They were going after the UTG since they raised and guessed UTG had a hand and you weren't on their radar until you called, lol. That's not a steal attempt or some silly play raising that much.

When they're raising like that its a complete give away that its something really, really nasty unless they're just an uber clueless bingo donk. When you call it I bet it was a surprise to them and they were happy.

So the flop is 244 rainbow. They're not raising to 18 cents with 2s or A4. They cbet so that won't give you any info but before you enter the hand should recognize its going to cost you 18 cents plus a continuation bet of at least half pot or a pot sized bet to see how they play the turn to get any info on what they have.

You're talking about 18+9cents/3cents is 9 orbits or 18+18=36cents or 12 orbits and you WILL STILL HAVE ZERO INFO ON THEIR HAND UNLESS YOU DID WHAT I DID EARLIER TO PUT THEM ON A HAND!!!

Putting out 9-12 orbits and not knowing where you are isn't going to be profitable in the long run so you have to move away from just looking at what you have and work on situational poker ie what your opponents are doing and telling you.

Another clue that they have a monster is they didn't bet the pot but 2x the pot so they told you what they had preflop and again on the flop. And again, unless they're uber, crazy bingo aggressive donks then they're playing the two cards they have and telling you its something very nasty and you have to listen!!

The rest of the streets are meaningless. Their hand was made before the flop and they told you so. The rainbow board and it developing into a straight or flush is meaningless. The only reason why you haven't shoved is because you're scared of a King or Ace coming but you're not considering that they already might have them in their hand. You're just going by what you see and not going by what's happening. I'm sounding like a broken record, lol so I'll stop.

Recap: Consider what I said about playing shorthanded and starting hands, unless you feel like you know starting hands and what position to play them from then ignore this.

Work on your understanding of position and the benefits of position like the info you could gather before entering a pot

Work on preplanning a hand. You should have realized that pot was going to cost a lot in BBs to play. And I want you to start seeing thing in terms of BBs and how many hands you're giving up to play hands like that.

You should be going by how many BBs you won and not by how much in cash you won. Go by the BBs to highlight how much a hand is going to cost you and what you're going to give up to play a hand, or how many orbits around the table you're giving up put another way. I think that might make you see things a little differently.

Uber long post, GL.

I agree with you.

The problem is having played by looking only at your cards.

You didn't give information about the villain and if you know his game, but as the friend above said, of course it's a premium hand play.

At first I had a lot of problems with QQ too, but learning to stop overvaluing hands, even AA, became easier and more profitable to play.

 

[Ortwin1989]

First problem is a lot of folks especially beginners shouldn't be playing short handed. It forces you to play too many hands and lets you think you can get away with playing certain hands. So unless you know without a doubt what starting hands you should be playing and from what seat and WHY you play those hands and the discipline to fold hands you shouldn't be playing in those seats then I wouldn't suggest playing short handed, issue #1.

To the hand: You're playing 1/2 cent. Utg raises it probably raised with Ace x. the next one raises to 18 cents so that's 9x the BB so UBER BIG ALARMS SHOULD BE GOING OFF!!!!!!!

Even playing at such a low level, I'd say they're doing it with tens+ and the tighter your read on them then its going to be JJ, QQ, KK or AA. The utg more than likely had Ax so I'm not a fan of them having aces and Ak even short handed and definitely not AQ since you have two of the ladies and that's a really out there play with AQ by raising so much so its basically KK or JJ.

Could it be a 7s-9s? I don't think so with a 3bet like that, even at that level they should recognize that you're going to have a lot of overs on the flop so its not the right idea to bet so much unless they're just an aggressive clueless donk but you might run into that person at that level, lol.

The other thing is when they raise like that they're raising that way because UTG gave info that they had a hand. THAT'S THE WHOLE KEY TO YOUR HAND HERE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR HAND OR THE RESULTS.

Its like you're so focused on YOUR hand, that YOU lost with a premium hand that you're not paying attention to the positional play and all the information that was given to you.

This is what you need to work on: pay more attention to position and what your opponents are doing!!!! They were going after the UTG since they raised and guessed UTG had a hand and you weren't on their radar until you called, lol. That's not a steal attempt or some silly play raising that much.

When they're raising like that its a complete give away that its something really, really nasty unless they're just an uber clueless bingo donk. When you call it I bet it was a surprise to them and they were happy.

So the flop is 244 rainbow. They're not raising to 18 cents with 2s or A4. They cbet so that won't give you any info but before you enter the hand should recognize its going to cost you 18 cents plus a continuation bet of at least half pot or a pot sized bet to see how they play the turn to get any info on what they have.

You're talking about 18+9cents/3cents is 9 orbits or 18+18=36cents or 12 orbits and you WILL STILL HAVE ZERO INFO ON THEIR HAND UNLESS YOU DID WHAT I DID EARLIER TO PUT THEM ON A HAND!!!

Putting out 9-12 orbits and not knowing where you are isn't going to be profitable in the long run so you have to move away from just looking at what you have and work on situational poker ie what your opponents are doing and telling you.

Another clue that they have a monster is they didn't bet the pot but 2x the pot so they told you what they had preflop and again on the flop. And again, unless they're uber, crazy bingo aggressive donks then they're playing the two cards they have and telling you its something very nasty and you have to listen!!

The rest of the streets are meaningless. Their hand was made before the flop and they told you so. The rainbow board and it developing into a straight or flush is meaningless. The only reason why you haven't shoved is because you're scared of a King or Ace coming but you're not considering that they already might have them in their hand. You're just going by what you see and not going by what's happening. I'm sounding like a broken record, lol so I'll stop.

Recap: Consider what I said about playing shorthanded and starting hands, unless you feel like you know starting hands and what position to play them from then ignore this.

Work on your understanding of position and the benefits of position like the info you could gather before entering a pot

Work on preplanning a hand. You should have realized that pot was going to cost a lot in BBs to play. And I want you to start seeing thing in terms of BBs and how many hands you're giving up to play hands like that.

You should be going by how many BBs you won and not by how much in cash you won. Go by the BBs to highlight how much a hand is going to cost you and what you're going to give up to play a hand, or how many orbits around the table you're giving up put another way. I think that might make you see things a little differently.

Uber long post, GL.

Thanks...yeah, I didn't realise the preflop game with the UTC at all...was too much focused on my QQs...I'll work on that!

 

[AizenFalck]

Do you play at PokerStars? Because in PS they are not interested even if you have a full house, probably the villain has a straight flush to destroy your game, the same thing always happens to me with top pair and it is not surprising, I recently mentioned in another comment that I lose with aces 8 out of 10 times and not the opposite of what it should be to win 8 out of 10. It's frustrating and it usually happens and the truth is that if you love the game you have no choice but to keep playing and hope that the gods of poker want you to win one day even with all the odds stacked against you. Regards.

 

[whitetailbuck10]

WOW.... great information in some of these posts that can help so many of us less skilled players.

Thanks for all that info.

 

[June4Spades]

Pocket pairs is only a good start. Try to not clench to them but re-evaluate at turn an river.

 

[dreamer13]

With medium pairs (less than 10), it's not worth getting into all-in preflop and flop, but you need to bet actively, and bet first on mediocre streets. Carefully monitor the probabilities of other players, calculate the options. Count on getting a set, full house or four of a kind and build your game according to the probability of developing a pair in poker hands to these combinations. The last positions with a pocket pair are played more aggressively than the first and middle ones.

 

[fundiver199]

Hand 1 QQ

Preflop
I dont hate calling here, but you could also 4-bet with intention of calling a 5-bet jam. Folding would be to tight.

Flop
As played check-calling is standard.

Turn
He bet so large, that he commit both of you, so now is decision time, and I feel, QQ is just a tad to strong to fold. He could have JJ, so there is at least one value hand, you beat, and whenever that is the case, we typically cant fold. I dont think, there is any benefit in letting another card roll off and let him control the river action. All, this does, is to give him a free card, when he is behind, and still get the max value, when he is ahead. So for me I check-jam here and then come, what may.

River
As played you are probably beat, when he bet the rest of it, especially since the flushdraw now got there. But you are also kind of committed getting 4:1, so its kind of a crying call. You need to be good 20% of the time, and while its close, you probably are just about that. You still beat JJ or a bluff, which refuse to give up.

Conclusion
This is a tough spot, but overall I dont think, we can get away from QQ in a 5-handed game. In a full ring game with EP action, the 3-betting range will be stronger, and then maybe we can consider folding QQ on the turn. But in this exact spot I will classify this as just a cooler. Coolers are annoying, but they are also a wash in the long run. All, you need to do, is ask yourself, that when you have KK, and he have QQ, will he get away? And against most opponents the answer is "no". So he is not gaining any edge on you in this hand.

Hand 2 KK

Preflop
When someone open raise to 30BB, they are likely not intending to fold to a shove, so I dont see any need to slowplay to induce bluffs. All, this does, is to possibly allow him to get away, if he dont like the flop. So for me this is the easiest jam in the world, and I am loving the situation.

Flop
As played we are obviously not going to fold, just because the board is paired with rags. The whole point of just calling preflop was to give him the rope to hang himself, so this is the easiest call in the world.

Conclusion
This one is a crazy bad beat, and bad beats are always annoying in the moment. But bad beats are part of the game, and we want players like this on our tables. In the long run they cant defy math, so they are literally like an ATM machine. The only thing, which matter after a hand like this, is to not go on tilt and not start doing stupid things like berating him in the chat. Just suck it up, reload and dont leave this table, as long as he is still playing.

 

[xaj9x]

Hey Watch training videos, practice, and most importantly, think and see who will play against you and what he can have, think in ranges

 

[hilary antonik filho]

Usually I raise, even though I'm taking a certain risk, 40% end up winning, 60% losing, but the only way to know is to bet

 

[Mercurius]

Hello,

since the beginning of my poker play I lose the most money when playing premium Pocket pairs.

With premium pairs like AA-QQ i can't decide when ist is the right decision to call/ raise or fold...therefore I mostly call/raise until I'm all in.

Below is a typical play from me...I thought in the moment I had the nuts, because of 2 pair, but I clearly didn't - even every hand with a 4 in it had beat me.

Do you have any tipps how to optimise my decision making process when playing premium pocket pairs?


PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 5 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

Neuttt (UTG): $3.43 (172 bb)
Uazbi (CO): $2.09 (105 bb)
Anton Vulyk (BU): $1.89 (95 bb)
Ortwin1989 (SB): $2.00 (100 bb)
maurom332 (BB): $2.05 (103 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Ortwin1989) is SB with Q♠ Q♦
Neuttt (UTG) raises to $0.05, Uazbi (CO) 3-bets to $0.18, 1 fold, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.17, 2 players fold

Flop: ($0.43) 2♣ 4♥ 4♠ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.31, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.05) T♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.77, Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.77

River: ($2.59) 7♣ (2 players)
Ortwin1989 (SB) checks, Uazbi (CO) bets $0.83 (all-in), Ortwin1989 (SB) calls $0.74 (all-in)

Total pot: $4.07 (Rake: $0.14)

Showdown:
Uazbi (CO) shows K♦ K♥ (two pair, Kings and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 92%, Turn: 95%, River: 100%)

Ortwin1989 (SB) shows Q♠ Q♦ (two pair, Queens and Fours)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 8%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

Uazbi (CO) wins $3.93

Some thoughts on this for you - my writing is blunt but ignore the tone. I think it's great you're asking and inviting thoughts on your play.

• QQ is premium but it isn't as good as you think - you will face an A or K on the flop 31% of the time and if raising heavily pre-flop (which you should be) you're likely facing A/K heavy ranges
• You had to raise pre-flop - QQ isn't that great as per above so you want to just take it down here. Double his bet and take 10BB home. A call or raise from him tells you you're up against a big hand and it gives you a chance to get away post-flop
• Once you've seen a turn/river, I'm generally of the view I'm not getting my chips in without a set or better. It's rare you're up against less if they're playing for stacks (especially if one pair is on the board...)
• I think given he's raised pre-flop and bet all 3 streets its a pretty easy fold by the river really.
• A general trick for post flop thinking is to always default to raising their bet. If you can't justify the raise to yourself you should probably fold. I suspect you were nervous the whole way and couldn't have pulled a raise out given the size of his bets would have meant raising = shoving, hence you should have gone in the muck by the river if not earlier

How would I play that hand? I think you lost your stack pre-flop by not raising. Post flop it was tricky to get away from which is why nailing your pre-flop play is so vital.

You needed to raise (probably 2x the 3bet) pre-flop all day - if he has worse you want them to pay you for it and if they shove over you it's then a judgement call based on their play but you probably let the QQ go (they're likely 5Bet shoving with AK/AA/KK - you only have an edge against AK and it's not that big 56 vs 44). Best to find out now and fold 20BB than punting off 100BB stack

If you get called, your flop decision is Raise/Fold when he leads out for any size, but particularly when it's a big bet from him. Given the size of a 2-3x raise means most of your stack it has become a shove/fold decision on the flop. You either think he has AA/KK in which case you're screwed and should fold, or you think he has worse and you should shove and either stop him drawing out on you or get paid when he calls with JJ/TT/99 etc


Hope that makes sense - bit of a brain dump!!

 

[Ortwin1989]

Some thoughts on this for you - my writing is blunt but ignore the tone. I think it's great you're asking and inviting thoughts on your play.

• QQ is premium but it isn't as good as you think - you will face an A or K on the flop 31% of the time and if raising heavily pre-flop (which you should be) you're likely facing A/K heavy ranges
• You had to raise pre-flop - QQ isn't that great as per above so you want to just take it down here. Double his bet and take 10BB home. A call or raise from him tells you you're up against a big hand and it gives you a chance to get away post-flop
• Once you've seen a turn/river, I'm generally of the view I'm not getting my chips in without a set or better. It's rare you're up against less if they're playing for stacks (especially if one pair is on the board...)
• I think given he's raised pre-flop and bet all 3 streets its a pretty easy fold by the river really.
• A general trick for post flop thinking is to always default to raising their bet. If you can't justify the raise to yourself you should probably fold. I suspect you were nervous the whole way and couldn't have pulled a raise out given the size of his bets would have meant raising = shoving, hence you should have gone in the muck by the river if not earlier

How would I play that hand? I think you lost your stack pre-flop by not raising. Post flop it was tricky to get away from which is why nailing your pre-flop play is so vital.

You needed to raise (probably 2x the 3bet) pre-flop all day - if he has worse you want them to pay you for it and if they shove over you it's then a judgement call based on their play but you probably let the QQ go (they're likely 5Bet shoving with AK/AA/KK - you only have an edge against AK and it's not that big 56 vs 44). Best to find out now and fold 20BB than punting off 100BB stack

If you get called, your flop decision is Raise/Fold when he leads out for any size, but particularly when it's a big bet from him. Given the size of a 2-3x raise means most of your stack it has become a shove/fold decision on the flop. You either think he has AA/KK in which case you're screwed and should fold, or you think he has worse and you should shove and either stop him drawing out on you or get paid when he calls with JJ/TT/99 etc


Hope that makes sense - bit of a brain dump!!

Hi,

started to play pocket pairs more aggressively. Seems to be working.

 

[Batarang96]

It's easy to forget that a premium pair is just a PAIR. And nearly 4/5 times, the flop will not improve your hand. Big pots are for big hands; small pots are for small hands. Pre-flop, you have a huge hand; build the pot and make your opponent pay to see the flop. Position is still extremely important; even when you have a premium hand. If you're OOP, and the board is wet, then it's going to be an uphill battle.

 

[Langerz]

I don’t think this really needs a long response. If you have a 3 bet or 4 bet range in these hands QQ and KK should be in them. If you don’t have a 3bet or 4bet range in these spots I’d be curious why.

Another note is KK and QQ lose a fair amount. It happens