£10 NLHE6-max: 3bet by nit with QQ, IP

Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 20/15/2.6

Me and forsakenone (dan) have been discussing this hand for a while on Skype so thought I would post it up.

I'll post it one street at a time and then the results. Hopefully can get some good feedback.

We'll start here:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($10.05)
BB ($11.60)
UTG ($19.21)
Hero ($12.47)
BTN ($11.15)

Dealt to Hero Q:spade: Q:diamond:

fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.80, Hero ???

Stats on villain:

VPIP: 20, PFR: 15, AF: 2.6, 3bet%: 2.6%
 
B

baudib1

Legend
I'm not sure 20/15 is a nit at any level.

I think you can 4-bet and happily get it in.

If you want to flat and get it in if you flop an overpair that's cool, too.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
yeah but he's in the blinds and you're a late-position raiser. I'm sure his 3-bet range is slightly higher in the BB than it would be on the button. what's your table image?
 
The Dark Side

The Dark Side

Visionary
2.6% is like KK+ AK.


How many hands is that stat from?

If its over a big sample, your toast here more than not.
 
The Dark Side

The Dark Side

Visionary
yeah but he's in the blinds and you're a late-position raiser. I'm sure his 3-bet range is slightly higher in the BB than it would be on the button. what's your table image?


His 3-bet is 2.6. The only question here is how many hands. Even if he does open his 3bet up from the blinds. What is he adding?
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
Ok so calculating 2.6% of his 3bet preflop would show these hands: AA, KK, AKs, QQ, JJ and TT.

Ok, so the reason this is posted here is because me and the OP had a discussion about the hand, basically what happened is I said i would reraise to 1.8$ or 2$. My thoughts on this is because i believe he is putting us on a steal from late position and he might be reraising here to resteal. I doubt the BB has KK or AA because the only reraised 50c more which seems kinda not enough to me because it gives me the impression he is begging for a fold which makes me want to bet so bad so i am putting him at a best AK hand and i believe i can make him fold AK, JJ or TT here by 4 betting.

So, new thought, i think that if he had AA or KK he would bet more preflop for value exactly from the kind of hands we have or something like JJ TT or AK. But, it's 4.15 in the morning and i am finding it really hard to focus here, but if i had AA or KK i would reraise more to maybe 1.1$ preflop to get more value from the hands i said earlier and to get hands like small pocket pairs to fold (anything from 22-99) because i am only asking for 50c more and i have 11$ behind me, making it likely that a small pocket pair will see a flop because of the implied odds (you hit 1 of 8 times a set with a PP as far as i know, so you miss 7x0.50c = 3.5$ but when you finally hit a set and he has AA or KK you win 11$) so this is why i doubt a grinder like him, would 3bet so less.

So if i am putting him on AK why not call and see a flop you ask? Simply because i would rather take a small pot down preflop, or lose 2$ preflop than making a really hard decision when a flop like 278 rainbow comes. Point where we still have no idea what he has in his hand, on this board he will bet out of position all his range which is once again AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and AKs and i suspect AKo too. There is also another variable that comes in to mind, the board could come 27K or 27A, he bets out of position because he now has the lead as he reraised from the BB and he has to cbet with JJ and TT because there is only 1 over on the board (that's what i would do) and he will definitely bet AK and AKs on a board like 27K or 27A. Plus he has all the right to represent an A or K because he 3bet light preflop.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
why do we want to keep the pot small? we have position and QQ!

(btw i think there's a good answer to this question but...)
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
No one 3bet / folds AK CO vs blind AND

WHY
THE
****
WOULD
YOU
WANT
HIM
TO
FOLD
JJ
OR
TT
????????????????????????????????????

i believe i already responded to this:

"So if i am putting him on AK why not call and see a flop you ask? Simply because i would rather take a small pot down preflop, or lose 2$ preflop than making a really hard decision when a flop like 278 rainbow comes. Point where we still have no idea what he has in his hand, on this board he will bet out of position all his range which is once again AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and AKs and i suspect AKo too. There is also another variable that comes in to mind, the board could come 27K or 27A, he bets out of position because he now has the lead as he reraised from the BB and he has to cbet with JJ and TT because there is only 1 over on the board (that's what i would do) and he will definitely bet AK and AKs on a board like 27K or 27A. Plus he has all the right to represent an A or K because he 3bet light preflop."

So anyway, i thought poker was about making the right decision and about hand reading, if i call i still don't know where i am, so i might as well go all in which still counts as a 4bet, but if i go all in he won't call TT or JJ, i have doubts he will call AKs and AKo, and he will definitely call with KK and AA, if he folds i win 80c yey, if he calls i am doomed, byebye to 11$ never to be seen again :)

So, no need for cursing here, simply i see no reason to call, either shove it, or make a normal 4bet to find out where you stand, no reason to call because on the flop we still have the same problem as preflop but with more variables with 3 more cards showing. and, considering the range we gave him, he would have these outs that can scare me really bad: any A, any K, any T any J, all i really like on a flop is another Q. Plus, he might have as well reraised us with a small pocket pair because he believes we are in for a steal from late position, when the flop comes, he can have a set of about just anything that flopped really (if it's all small) and we missed the chance to get him to fold, and if he does misses with the small pocket pair as it is possible, he won't put a nickle more in the pot.

Give your thoughts and make sure you explain, not curse :) willing to learn here.
 
Last edited:
B

baudib1

Legend
I think you need to reassess your thought process here. You hold the third nuts and it sounds like you're trying to get away with a bluff with QQ.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
i believe i already responded to this:

"So if i am putting him on AK why not call and see a flop you ask? Simply because i would rather take a small pot down preflop, or lose 2$ preflop than making a really hard decision when a flop like 278 rainbow comes. Point where we still have no idea what he has in his hand, on this board he will bet out of position all his range which is once again AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and AKs and i suspect AKo too. There is also another variable that comes in to mind, the board could come 27K or 27A, he bets out of position because he now has the lead as he reraised from the BB and he has to cbet with JJ and TT because there is only 1 over on the board (that's what i would do) and he will definitely bet AK and AKs on a board like 27K or 27A. Plus he has all the right to represent an A or K because he 3bet light preflop."

So anyway, i thought poker was about making the right decision and about hand reading, if i call i still don't know where i am, so i might as well go all in which still counts as a 4bet, but if i go all in he won't call TT or JJ, i have doubts he will call AKs and AKo, and he will definitely call with KK and AA, if he folds i win 80c yey, if he calls i am doomed, byebye to 11$ never to be seen again :)

So, no need for cursing here, simply i see no reason to call, either shove it, or make a normal 4bet to find out where you stand, no reason to call because on the flop we still have the same problem as preflop but with more variables with 3 more cards showing. and, considering the range we gave him, he would have these outs that can scare me really bad: any A, any K, any T any J, all i really like on a flop is another Q. Plus, he might have as well reraised us with a small pocket pair because he believes we are in for a steal from late position, when the flop comes, he can have a set of about just anything that flopped really (if it's all small) and we missed the chance to get him to fold, and if he does misses with the small pocket pair as it is possible, he won't put a nickle more in the pot.

Give your thoughts and make sure you explain, not curse :) willing to learn here.

Sorry about the cussing. It was merely for emphasis. No malice meant. :)

BUT if you really think he folds AK/JJ/TT why are you 3betting? As a bluff? Can't be for value if he's not calling with anything other than KK+ right? I can think of about 3 dozen better hands to 4bet bluff with if you think his continuation range is KK+.

As for what I'd do? I'd 4bet and be willing to get it in because I think his range for getting it in includes JJ and AK. Against that range we're fine with the dead money in the pot AND the fact that there is a greater than zero chance that he 3bet/folds hands like 66-TT. If we can add TT to his stacking range we're a favorite against his continuation range as well. So yeah I 4bet too, but for value, not to turn QQ into a bluff.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
yeah but he's in the blinds and you're a late-position raiser. I'm sure his 3-bet range is slightly higher in the BB than it would be on the button. what's your table image?

Table image is fairly tight, I'm a newish reg (~8k hands, but most of the other regs have several hundred thousand). He's not seen me get out of line AFAIK either, so probably thinks I'm just a straight forward ABC 23/17.

Ok so calculating 2.6% of his 3bet preflop would show these hands: AA, KK, AKs, QQ, JJ and TT.

Ok, so the reason this is posted here is because me and the OP had a discussion about the hand, basically what happened is I said i would reraise to 1.8$ or 2$. My thoughts on this is because i believe he is putting us on a steal from late position and he might be reraising here to resteal. I doubt the BB has KK or AA because the only reraised 50c more which seems kinda not enough to me because it gives me the impression he is begging for a fold which makes me want to bet so bad so i am putting him at a best AK hand and i believe i can make him fold AK, JJ or TT here by 4 betting.

So, new thought, i think that if he had AA or KK he would bet more preflop for value exactly from the kind of hands we have or something like JJ TT or AK. But, it's 4.15 in the morning and i am finding it really hard to focus here, but if i had AA or KK i would reraise more to maybe 1.1$ preflop to get more value from the hands i said earlier and to get hands like small pocket pairs to fold (anything from 22-99) because i am only asking for 50c more and i have 11$ behind me, making it likely that a small pocket pair will see a flop because of the implied odds (you hit 1 of 8 times a set with a PP as far as i know, so you miss 7x0.50c = 3.5$ but when you finally hit a set and he has AA or KK you win 11$) so this is why i doubt a grinder like him, would 3bet so less.

So if i am putting him on AK why not call and see a flop you ask? Simply because i would rather take a small pot down preflop, or lose 2$ preflop than making a really hard decision when a flop like 278 rainbow comes. Point where we still have no idea what he has in his hand, on this board he will bet out of position all his range which is once again AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and AKs and i suspect AKo too. There is also another variable that comes in to mind, the board could come 27K or 27A, he bets out of position because he now has the lead as he reraised from the BB and he has to cbet with JJ and TT because there is only 1 over on the board (that's what i would do) and he will definitely bet AK and AKs on a board like 27K or 27A. Plus he has all the right to represent an A or K because he 3bet light preflop.

i believe i already responded to this:

"So if i am putting him on AK why not call and see a flop you ask? Simply because i would rather take a small pot down preflop, or lose 2$ preflop than making a really hard decision when a flop like 278 rainbow comes. Point where we still have no idea what he has in his hand, on this board he will bet out of position all his range which is once again AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and AKs and i suspect AKo too. There is also another variable that comes in to mind, the board could come 27K or 27A, he bets out of position because he now has the lead as he reraised from the BB and he has to cbet with JJ and TT because there is only 1 over on the board (that's what i would do) and he will definitely bet AK and AKs on a board like 27K or 27A. Plus he has all the right to represent an A or K because he 3bet light preflop."

So anyway, i thought poker was about making the right decision and about hand reading, if i call i still don't know where i am, so i might as well go all in which still counts as a 4bet, but if i go all in he won't call TT or JJ, i have doubts he will call AKs and AKo, and he will definitely call with KK and AA, if he folds i win 80c yey, if he calls i am doomed, byebye to 11$ never to be seen again :)

So, no need for cursing here, simply i see no reason to call, either shove it, or make a normal 4bet to find out where you stand, no reason to call because on the flop we still have the same problem as preflop but with more variables with 3 more cards showing. and, considering the range we gave him, he would have these outs that can scare me really bad: any A, any K, any T any J, all i really like on a flop is another Q. Plus, he might have as well reraised us with a small pocket pair because he believes we are in for a steal from late position, when the flop comes, he can have a set of about just anything that flopped really (if it's all small) and we missed the chance to get him to fold, and if he does misses with the small pocket pair as it is possible, he won't put a nickle more in the pot.

Give your thoughts and make sure you explain, not curse :) willing to learn here.

I've told Dan my thoughts on this already by Skype but will try and condense them here. I'll try and address them in some sort of logically order. There appear to be two reasons given why 4betting is suggested - "to find out where you stand", or to get him to fold JJ/TT/AK/low PP so we don't have to see a flop.

Firstly, to find out where you stand. Villain has a 2.6% 3bet over a large sample, so we can assume TT or maybe even JJ+, AKo+. Of course he's going to throw in the odd 3bet with stuff like AQs/99, but he's not going to get out of line much, mainly because he doesn't need to. These guys are very simple, very straightforward, and he's not going to adapt his range if I start opening more on tighter tables because he doesn't really have a clue what this sentence means :)

Firstly, I can't see villain 3betting and folding to a 4bet very much at all, only JJ and lower PPs (which are much less likely IMO) will do this. QQ+ and AK+ we get it all in and I find myself crushed or flipping. The problem with 4betting is that we fold out all the stuff we crush like AQs/88-JJ, and save him a lot of money.

The maths, assuming we make it around $2.8 to go:

We stand to win $0.90 if he folds (3bet + SB)
We stand to lose $2.80 if he goes all in

Therefore, for 4bet folding to be profitable here, he has to fold over 3x as many times as he goes all in. Given his range of 2.6%, he's obviously not going to be doing this.

Secondly, we have QQ! Yes, he's a nit, but we have a very strong hand. Folding pre here is simply not an option, and as I've just shown 4bet/folding is throwing money away. There are only two ways we can make any profit with QQ here - firstly 4bet and calling him off, obviously assuming that he stacks off with JJ here to make it definitely +EV but QQ v QQ+, AK is only a 40/60 dog so I reckon that's probably going to be fairly similar.

The other option is flatting the 3bet, thereby keeping all the hands we have crushed in the pot and making profit after the flop comes down. This leads onto the second point that Dan was making - getting hands which we crush to fold. This is the last thing I want to do. Given his tight 3betting range I think any move here is going to be fairly marginally EV but I want to maximise any advantage I have over him and I think that includes playing him post flop - he will play fairly straight forward, it gives us the chance to bink a set or fold after continued aggression on the turn folding an A or K high flop , and we've also got position which we can use to our advantage massively.

Being scared of seeing a flop vs these sorts of opponents isn't good.

Sorry about the cussing. It was merely for emphasis. No malice meant. :)

BUT if you really think he folds AK/JJ/TT why are you 3betting? As a bluff? Can't be for value if he's not calling with anything other than KK+ right? I can think of about 3 dozen better hands to 4bet bluff with if you think his continuation range is KK+.

As for what I'd do? I'd 4bet and be willing to get it in because I think his range for getting it in includes JJ and AK. Against that range we're fine with the dead money in the pot AND the fact that there is a greater than zero chance that he 3bet/folds hands like 66-TT. If we can add TT to his stacking range we're a favorite against his continuation range as well. So yeah I 4bet too, but for value, not to turn QQ into a bluff.

I quite like getting it in pre too, but given I've got no notes and we aren't sure if he stacks off with TT to a 4bet, yet probably will on most flops where there aren't 2+ overs, and the fact we can probably get some small value out of a hand like 66 on a low board if he puts us on two broadway, etc, I think there is definitely merit to playing post flop with him. Additionally, our hand is fairly disguised when we flat IP, partly as I have a very low fold to 3bet (something I should have mentioned before, but I don't think that any reg at this level is going to have it as a prominent stat on his HUD which he pays attention to) and also because he still probably includes set mining PP in my range along with various aces and broadways, especially suited ones.


Just some food for thought. I'm not saying any of it's right, just my opinion. :)

PS. 1. I'll move onto the next part of the hand sometime tomorrow, but seems there's plenty of discussion re: pre first.

PS. 2. This is mainly aimed at Dan, but I think assuming all opponents think - and more specifically use exactly the same bet sizing - as you is definitely a major leak IMO. Basing your reads purely off what you would do in that spot compared to what villain does doesn't make any sense, given that the whole aim of having a tracker/taking notes/watching pots is to ensure that you have an idea of what other players do. Otherwise, saying that because he made it so small he's probably 3betting light to defend what he perceives as a steal, has no basis in actual fact whatsoever. All villains bet differently, and finding patterns in bet sizing wouldn't be such a great tell to pick up if it was the same for everyone.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Meh I have a few issues with calling.

1) 38% of the time an overcard will flop and you'll miss your set which will slow you down or make you fold potentially the best hand

2) some % of the time he would have stacked JJ perhaps TT preflop but will fold when the board contains overs

3) because his 3bet is so small our SPR if we call is going to be ~6.5 which can be awkward postflop.

Basically everything about the hand makes me want to 4bet/call. I see no real reason to call and play postflop here. And how much money do you really expect to get from a small pp postflop unless they flop a set?
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
I don't think he stacks off with TT preflop and possibly not JJ. His 3bet range is small and given our tight image I think he can 3bet fold instead of 5betting all in with TT. Even if the board contains an over, we'll probably get a fair bit of value from 88/99/TT/JJ, and we're likely to stack them on a low flop.

I can't see this guy getting out of line with any bluffs - I think he'll shut down a lot when he hasn't got it, and if he checks to us on the flop we can assume we're in the lead a lot of the time (and a lot of regs do c/c or c/f flops with weak hands).

I just hate giving him the chance to fold all the hands we crush pre while forcing ourselves to call an all in when we are likely behind :(
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
Sorry about the cussing. It was merely for emphasis. No malice meant. :)

BUT if you really think he folds AK/JJ/TT why are you 3betting? As a bluff? Can't be for value if he's not calling with anything other than KK+ right? I can think of about 3 dozen better hands to 4bet bluff with if you think his continuation range is KK+.

As for what I'd do? I'd 4bet and be willing to get it in because I think his range for getting it in includes JJ and AK. Against that range we're fine with the dead money in the pot AND the fact that there is a greater than zero chance that he 3bet/folds hands like 66-TT. If we can add TT to his stacking range we're a favorite against his continuation range as well. So yeah I 4bet too, but for value, not to turn QQ into a bluff.

Hey, for some reason, no idea why you see it as a bluff, all i see it is betting to find out where i am, and since he doesn't move all in with TT, JJ and AK i know where i am. I think somewhere earlier i did mention i would rather go all in preflop, this being because the discussion between me and Pascal was that he said he would like to call here and see a flop, my idea was to 4bet and see what he does preflop, either get it all in preflop, or fold it to his 5 bet. I still don't agree with you calling his 5bet, but your option is tons more viable than calling here and seeing a flop like Pascal agrees to do. Why i don't agree with calling his all in 5 bet is because i doubt he 5 bets much with TT and JJ and AK, i believe he only does it with AA and KK.

At this very moment i might make a call with QQ here, really depends on my state of mind, have I been running good that day? have i been running bad? Maybe i'd make the call with QQ, but odds are i am going to fold simply because i doubt he will do a 5 bet with weaker hands than mine.

So anyway, this post is about 4 betting or calling, I agree with 4 betting and Pascal goes for seeing a flop. Pick a side and give more thoughts, i believe posts like these really train our mind :)

If anyone is curious who Pascal calls Dan, that would be me.
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
Pascal said this: "The maths, assuming we make it around $2.8 to go:

We stand to win $0.90 if he folds (3bet + SB)
We stand to lose $2.80 if he goes all in

Therefore, for 4bet folding to be profitable here, he has to fold over 3x as many times as he goes all in. Given his range of 2.6%, he's obviously not going to be doing this."

I never said making it to 2.8$ reraise, i said either make it 1.8$ or 2$. It's a 4 bet, doesn't need to be that big, just a little over double his amount.

Change that and he only has to fold 2x as many times as he goes all in, as i still think he doesn't have KK or AA, and i believe he is just trying to resteal, god knows with what, could be anything from 66 to 77 to TT to TJs to AQs to AK, there are way more hands he can do this with, and he has only AA and KK to stack off.

I believe his range for restealing here is way bigger than his stacking range, and he will be folding most of his 3 bet range, 4 betting here is profitable, my point of view.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
In the games I play, both online and live, which are slightly higher than this, I'm really cool with stacking off with JJ+/AK in these spots without significant reads/history.

That said I'm willing to admit that people stack off tighter at this level even in LP-raiser vs. BB spots. However, there are a lot of leaks ITT; the only reason I can see for flatting is because you think he is going to be FOS a lot and you want a cbet out of him before slamming the door and shoving the flop. You don't want him to fold his restealing range.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Hey, for some reason, no idea why you see it as a bluff, all i see it is betting to find out where i am, and since he doesn't move all in with TT, JJ and AK i know where i am. I think somewhere earlier i did mention i would rather go all in preflop, this being because the discussion between me and Pascal was that he said he would like to call here and see a flop, my idea was to 4bet and see what he does preflop, either get it all in preflop, or fold it to his 5 bet. I still don't agree with you calling his 5bet, but your option is tons more viable than calling here and seeing a flop like Pascal agrees to do. Why i don't agree with calling his all in 5 bet is because i doubt he 5 bets much with TT and JJ and AK, i believe he only does it with AA and KK.

At this very moment i might make a call with QQ here, really depends on my state of mind, have I been running good that day? have i been running bad? Maybe i'd make the call with QQ, but odds are i am going to fold simply because i doubt he will do a 5 bet with weaker hands than mine.

So anyway, this post is about 4 betting or calling, I agree with 4 betting and Pascal goes for seeing a flop. Pick a side and give more thoughts, i believe posts like these really train our mind :)

If anyone is curious who Pascal calls Dan, that would be me.

What you are saying makes no sense to me? "either get it all in preflop, or fold it to his 5 bet." - If he 5bets, we get it all in. We can't jam over an 8BB 3bet, so essentially the two things you are saying to do are opposites.

Pascal said this: "The maths, assuming we make it around $2.8 to go:

We stand to win $0.90 if he folds (3bet + SB)
We stand to lose $2.80 if he goes all in

Therefore, for 4bet folding to be profitable here, he has to fold over 3x as many times as he goes all in. Given his range of 2.6%, he's obviously not going to be doing this."

I never said making it to 2.8$ reraise, i said either make it 1.8$ or 2$. It's a 4 bet, doesn't need to be that big, just a little over double his amount.

Change that and he only has to fold 2x as many times as he goes all in, as i still think he doesn't have KK or AA, and i believe he is just trying to resteal, god knows with what, could be anything from 66 to 77 to TT to TJs to AQs to AK, there are way more hands he can do this with, and he has only AA and KK to stack off.

I believe his range for restealing here is way bigger than his stacking range, and he will be folding most of his 3 bet range, 4 betting here is profitable, my point of view.

Firstly, reraising to $2 is too small IMO, even if we are in position. You've got no reason to think that he doesn't have AA/KK, please, convince me otherwise.

In the games I play, both online and live, which are slightly higher than this, I'm really cool with stacking off with JJ+/AK in these spots without significant reads/history.

That said I'm willing to admit that people stack off tighter at this level even in LP-raiser vs. BB spots. However, there are a lot of leaks ITT; the only reason I can see for flatting is because you think he is going to be FOS a lot and you want a cbet out of him before slamming the door and shoving the flop. You don't want him to fold his restealing range.

Don't worry, I do know you play higher than 10NL ;) The issue for me here is that this guy has such a narrow 5bet and even 3bet range that we can extract more value pre. Why would we want to slam the door against his FOS range when when we can either give him the chance to bluff us again or to extract some small value from him (people hate folding AK)

I've also watched 50NL and talked to plenty of regs, and 50NL is far more aggro than 10NL, plus people are far more thinking. The majority of regs on iPoker are long-term losing players (some of them losing very steadily at -5BB/100 over huge samples) who make all their money from the excellent rakeback offers which some affiliates offer. These aren't clever players, which is why I like trying to take some different lines against them.

I'll be honest, I think the order goes something like this:

4bet calling it off > flatting >>>>> folding/4betting to see where we are

However I don't think there's much difference between the first two, especially when he plays so straight forward post flop.

I'll give it ~8 hours then post the next bit :D
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
"What you are saying makes no sense to me? "either get it all in preflop, or fold it to his 5 bet." - If he 5bets, we get it all in. We can't jam over an 8BB 3bet, so essentially the two things you are saying to do are opposites."

I am having a hard time figuring out what you are trying to say here "We can't jam over an 8BB 3bet", are you trying to say you can't let go of the 8 big blinds you already have in the pot therefor you would have to call because of the money that you invested so far? And what are opposites? folding to a 5 bet and calling and all in? Yes they are opposites however what i was trying to say is that i rather see you 4 bet and call and all in rather than flatting his 3 bet as you suggested.

so what i am saying is this: 4bet fold to an all in (suggested by me)> 4bet call to an all in (suggested by WVHillbilly) > flatting to see a flop (suggested by you).

Pascal: "Firstly, reraising to $2 is too small IMO, even if we are in position. You've got no reason to think that he doesn't have AA/KK, please, convince me otherwise."

For some reason i doubt the 2$ 4bet is too small, as far as i know 4 bets are smaller usually due to the fact that if you bet 3x the amount already in pot, it would make the pot too big so you might as well 4bet all in. My thinking is i 4 bet smaller here for the info, as i already stated, i invested only 2$ in the pot, and i can easily fold to an all in.

You are right, i have no reason not to believe he doesn't have AA or KK, that's why i am 4 betting light, find out if he does, and as i stated earlier in some post, i think he is in for a re steal because he think you are in for a steal.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Hey, for some reason, no idea why you see it as a bluff, all i see it is betting to find out where i am, ...

Betting to "see where you are" is not a reason for betting. Reason to bet are:
1) For Value (we think we likely have the best hand AND our opponent can call with worse)
2) As a Bluff (we don't think we have the best hand AND our opponent can fold better hands)
3) For Protection (we think we have the best hand BUT we think our opponent has good equity that he will fold if we bet. Betting for protection should be used rarely and doesn't apply preflop.)


I think this is a case where we should be betting for value.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
If we 4bet we aren't looking to get away, as the dead money from any of our 4bet will give us 0EV/slightly +EV to call him off even vs his very strong range.

You are not "4betting light", you've got QQ.

I agree WVHillbilly, and I see nothing wrong with getting it in pre, but I like to mix it up every now and then and I don't think it's that bad :)
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
If we 4bet we aren't looking to get away, as the dead money from any of our 4bet will give us 0EV/slightly +EV to call him off even vs his very strong range.

You are not "4betting light", you've got QQ.

I agree WVHillbilly, and I see nothing wrong with getting it in pre, but I like to mix it up every now and then and I don't think it's that bad :)

If his range for shoving over our 4bet is only KK+/AK we really can't 4bet profitably, even if we 4bet bigger to say $2.50 we don't have the equity we need to call when he shoves if he never shoves with JJ.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
One last point before we move on:

Amount in pot = 25BB (our 4bet) + 100B (his jam) + 0.5BB (SB) = 125.05BB
Amount to call = 75BB
Amount you win if you call and you're right = 125.5
Amount you lose if you're wrong = 75BB

Equity to break even = (amount you win)/(amount you win + amount you lose) = 75/(125.5+75) = 75/200.5 = 0.37 = 37%

QQ vs a QQ+/AK range = 40%

So it is +EV to call him off even if we think he only jams QQ+/AK which is as tight as people get at 10NL


Anyway, fun discussion :) Let's see a flop just cos I like seeing flops, yeah?

Part Deux

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($10.05)
BB ($11.60)
UTG ($19.21)
Hero ($12.47)
BTN ($11.15)

Dealt to Hero Q Q

fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, fold, BB raises to $0.80, Hero calls $0.50

FLOP ($1.65) 6 7 3

BB bets $1.23, Hero ???
 
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