Overplayed JJ, or unfortunate circumstance?

roundcat

roundcat

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OK guys, did I overplay my jacks on this hand, or was it just a bad situation that was hard to get away from? This is .25/.50 NLHE, and I was sitting with a stack just over the max buy-in. The player who won was a maniac who was limping into nearly every pot, and/or calling any preflop raise.

Did I make a big mistake by calling the large check raise on the flop? Would you have gotten away from the hand at that point, or put the maniac on a weaker hand? (In other words, spank me, I think I did the wrong thing.)

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thefullymonty is at seat 1 with $37.25.
Jofdiamonds is at seat 2 with $129.45.
kristidawn111 is at seat 3 with $45.40. (the maniac)
CatHerder is at seat 4 with $51.75. (me)
ultimatesinn is at seat 5 with $30.95.
The button is at seat 4.
ultimatesinn posts the small blind of $.25.
thefullymonty posts the big blind of $.50.

thefullymonty: -- --
Jofdiamonds: -- --
kristidawn111: -- --
CatHerder: Jd Jc
ultimatesinn: -- --

Pre-flop:
Jofdiamonds folds.
kristidawn111 calls.
CatHerder raises to $2.
ultimatesinn calls.
thefullymonty folds.
kristidawn111 calls.

Flop (board: 9s 3s 2h):
ultimatesinn checks.
kristidawn111 checks.
CatHerder bets $4.
ultimatesinn calls.
kristidawn111 raises to $22.50.
CatHerder calls.
ultimatesinn calls.

Turn (board: 9s 3s 2h 7d):
ultimatesinn checks.
kristidawn111 checks.
CatHerder goes all-in for $27.25.
ultimatesinn goes all-in for $6.45.
kristidawn111 goes all-in for $20.90.
CatHerder is returned $6.35 (uncalled).

River (board: 9s 3s 2h 7d Qc):
(no action in this round)

Showdown:
CatHerder shows Jd Jc.
CatHerder has Jd Jc 9s 7d Qc: a pair of jacks.
ultimatesinn shows 4s 6s.
ultimatesinn has 4s 6s 9s 7d Qc: queen high.
kristidawn111 shows 3h 2c.
kristidawn111 has 3h 2c 3s 2h Qc: two pair, threes and deuces.

kristidawn111 wins the main pot $90.85 with two pair, threes and deuces.
kristidawn111 wins the side pot $28.90 with two pair, threes and deuces.
 
Insomniac_1006

Insomniac_1006

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Someone reminded me that I over value top pair, (which you had dominated) and reminded me that the average winning hand is two pairs.

If the player was loose, ob from the 2 3, then ya, you should have let them go.

I'm sure someone will be along in no time to explain in more detail.
 
pigpen02

pigpen02

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MORE-- Yes, against an idiot, unless you flopped a jack, you should have let them go. --DETAIL

I wanted to explain in more detail.
 
S

Seneku

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Mar 19, 2007
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After 2 people who have position on you call your flop bet I think you should slow down. But it is difficult to let them go in this situation. Which site is this? I want to add ultimatesinn to my buddy list, gosh what terrible play! :D
 
T

TheDoc

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I'd agree with your 'overplayed' option. You tested the waters with a reasonable bet, and were met with that big raise of $22 - pretty easy fold for me with just JJ with no other information.
 
roundcat

roundcat

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Thanks for the replies!

When I called I was hoping the raiser had an overpair smaller than jacks, but that was probably too optimistic. :) Since using PokerTracker I've found that I've lost the biggest pots with JJ and QQ... that should be a red flag.
 
J

joeeagles

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I hate to post after results of the hand are shown because they might seem results oriented. Anyway, yes I would have folded because his raise looks like he was either set mining and hit or he has AA or KK. Pot is $10.50 after your flop bet and he raises to $22.50. At $50nl I think this is rarely a bluff or a FD trying to get cute, it actually seems more like a made hand trying to outprice draws. On the turn he checks because it's now impossible to outprice a draw so he goes into check/call mode hoping a) to get to showdown w/o having to put more in and b) that his hand holds.

A typical donk (32o) that calls a PF raise and gets rewarded.
 
nev3rh00d

nev3rh00d

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1) After he raises to 22$ after u bet 4$ u should really consider folding. There's only 10$ in the pot and u invested 6$ of em. Also there's 1 more player to act after u.

2) 22$ raise into 2 players with in the 10$ pot doesn't look like a bluff at all. He could have slowed bigger pair, called with pp and hit a set or made a flush already.

P.S. One of ur biggest mistakes was that u have been in the pot not only with maniac.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Like others said before, If it were only the maniac, then I really can't blame you, but there were 2 players in the pot, so with that said u really should've let it go, for the simple fact that.
1) A you raised, got called, by the one player, and reraised by the other player, and u still had to figure out what the other player was calling with.
2) You only had a pair, even as loose as the other player may have been, they eventually have to "wake" up with a hand.
Overalll Verdict, You got donked, but u also made so bad calls
 
J

jeffred1111

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I probably fold since his line looks like he flopped a set and wanted to price out draws (you could be betting your draw): limp/call PF could be 22,33 or easily 99. Plus, against such an aggro donk, you'll have other situations where you can have the best of it.

Turn is awful. What kind of hands that have called pf + the raise on the flop that check here OOP. Shoving unless you think both are drawing to the flush (the only draw conceivable here apart from A4, A5) if throwing money away. Sure, had you been in front, you don't want to give a free river card, but the fact is, you're very likely to be hugely behind here and due to stack sizes, any bet that will cut down odds sufficiently will be a very good portion of your stack.

Moral of the story, you overplayed the jacks because someone got lucky on you, nothing to do about that except know when you're beat, wich can be rough.
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

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I tend to disagree. We have a maniac, and finally we get a pretty big overpair and a flop that is very unlikely to have hit more than a flush draw.

A maniac is perfectly capable of overbetting so much with a flush draw. Let alone top pair or a smaller overpair.

I don't agree with the flop call. This is about 50% of your stack. You either fold or move-in right here. That would increase the chance to get rid of the 2nd donk.

There is a fine line between total idiots and good very aggressive players. The chip stacks and the call by maniac (for 10% of chips stack), with such garbage indicates he is a total idiot. I would seek to play with him/her again. In position! You should recoup your losses from this one hand many times over:)
 
J

jeffred1111

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I tend to disagree. We have a maniac, and finally we get a pretty big overpair and a flop that is very unlikely to have hit more than a flush draw.

A maniac is perfectly capable of overbetting so much with a flush draw. Let alone top pair or a smaller overpair.

I don't agree with the flop call. This is about 50% of your stack. You either fold or move-in right here. That would increase the chance to get rid of the 2nd donk.

There is a fine line between total idiots and good very aggressive players. The chip stacks and the call by maniac (for 10% of chips stack), with such garbage indicates he is a total idiot. I would seek to play with him/her again. In position! You should recoup your losses from this one hand many times over:)

I would agree (arrinn) if we we were closing the action on both opponents, but the facts are this:

Our flop bet got called by the blind and then raised by the limper. We have next to no info on what the blinds have in this case: could he be floating, on a draw, calling with TPTK ? This means that our equity goes down dramatically against two opponents who could have major draws on this flop. Let's say that preflop limper has a range of 87s+, KJs+, KQs+, Axs+, Axo+, 22+ due to looseness there's a whole lot of "raising for value or for isolation hands" here and his raise really doesn't help us much figuring his hand out (since the dead money in the pot warrants raising with many, many hands). Blind can have literally anything, but is most likely floating or drawing to two pairs, flush draw, etc. and his range is thus also pretty big.

When I'm in the dark and have lost pot control in such a situation, I would probably go for a fold after the raise since I'm not closing the action (and the blind could have a set, two pairs, or just a big draw and be happy to call my all-in with good equity making me take the worse of it), but I'm really, really weak tight with 2 donks in the hand and such preflop/flop action. Considering stack sizes, villain raise has negated our positional advantage since calling is not an option anymore (JJ is far from a lock with even a simple KQ having 8 outs and if we figure our opponents to have both 8 outs or more, our equity drops down, but we still have more than 1/3 of the pot if my seat of the pants maths/approx are good). I could thus argue for a shove here if I knew I had some FE and some good redraws, but the set is a very real possibility here. We also statistically are shown AA, KK and QQ more often than an underpair to our overpair, wich leaves only TT: realistically, this is TT more often than AA due to preflop line, but KK and QQ are a possibility.

His preflop call was pretty donkish for 10% of his chips since he won't hit more than one time out of three. In this case, his ods of hitting hard and making the best hand or a great draw are probably below 1:15 and he is investing a third in the pot. Plus, even if his hand was suited, it is very vulnerable to getting outflushed. Moral of the story, hunt down players who will play 23o and get to be best buddy with them. But I'd wager that if the results weren't posted, people here would pretty take the safe line and fold.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Just wanted to add that his two pairs were very well hidden (23, 92 and 93 are all trash hands you wouldn't expect), so don't beat yourself for going to showdown, but shove on the flop next time so you try to kick out the third player (wich, given circumtances, would have called, but that's being results orientated) and boost your equity way up. It would've been a real bummer for the river to conterfeit his two pairs but give the third player a flush.

I still would've thought set though.
 
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