Omaha quartering ???

[Alon Ipser]

Stage #815444889: Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit $0.10 - 2007-11-11 13:01:00 (ET)
Table: ALEXANDRIA (Real Money) Seat #8 is the dealer
Seat 8 - ALON IPSER ($3.55 in chips)
Seat 9 - PATCH777 ($3.10 in chips)
Seat 1 - BLS12 ($46.39 in chips)
Seat 3 - WINNINGMAMA ($4.45 in chips)
Seat 4 - DRACO MALFOY ($24.19 in chips)
Seat 5 - KATREYA ($4 in chips)
Seat 6 - SEDEIGHTED ($32.95 in chips)
Seat 7 - HILOSILVER ($25.89 in chips)
PATCH777 - Posts small blind $0.05
BLS12 - Posts big blind $0.10
KATREYA - Posts $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to ALON IPSER [Ad 4c 2d 5s]
WINNINGMAMA - Calls $0.10
DRACO MALFOY - Folds
KATREYA - Checks
SEDEIGHTED - Raises $0.40 to $0.40
HILOSILVER - Calls $0.40
ALON IPSER - Calls $0.40
PATCH777 - Folds
BLS12 - Calls $0.30
WINNINGMAMA - Calls $0.30
KATREYA - Calls $0.30
*** FLOP *** [8s 7h Qs]
BLS12 - Checks
WINNINGMAMA - Bets $0.50
KATREYA - Calls $0.50
SEDEIGHTED - Calls $0.50
HILOSILVER - Folds
ALON IPSER - Calls $0.50
BLS12 - Calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [8s 7h Qs] [4d]
BLS12 - Checks
WINNINGMAMA - Bets $0.50
KATREYA - Calls $0.50
SEDEIGHTED - Calls $0.50
ALON IPSER - Calls $0.50
BLS12 - Calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [8s 7h Qs 4d] [Ks]
BLS12 - Checks
WINNINGMAMA - Bets $0.50
KATREYA - Calls $0.50
SEDEIGHTED - Calls $0.50
ALON IPSER - ?????????

I've got the nut low. Do I call here being cautious of being quartered or raise with all the people still in the pot? Is there a formula to figure whether to fold or call if you think you're going to quarter the pot? Very loose table in general.

 

[Bombjack]

[Insert disclaimers here re: no idea what I'm talking about] You should just call, especially at a full table, because you have no high and the best you can hope for is half the pot... although it's a weird hand because of the weirdy min-betting. Nobody's strong here so I might be inclined to pot it just because I don't feel like giving anyone a cheap showdown, and min-betters irritate me. Indeed... personally I might have potted the turn and river as a bluff... nobody's shown any strength and there's a good chance you fold out the winning high hand. If no-one else has A2 you'll probably scoop the pot.

Just realised you only have about $1.60 left and you're playing NL (??) which changes things a bit... in which case nobody's ever folding in a pot this size comparatively, so I don't know, maybe you're best off just sticking it in and hoping for the best (i.e. a couple of bad high hands and a naked A3 call)... I mean, who seriously plays short-stacked NLO8 anyway? The excitement of going all-in is probably the reason for playing, so you should probably just shove.

 

[OzExorcist]

There's five players in this hand, so even if you get quartered (and there's a good chance you will be), you're still going to come out slightly ahead.

I'd stick it all in here. Taking a quarter of a five player pot is still profitable, so you want to maximise that. Who knows, if the other players are loose enough you might even end up taking half.

The only problem is going to be if more than one other player has A2 in their hand.

 

[dj11]

Don't forget the rake. Not sure what site this was at.

When you consider the rake, you might be justified in only calling here.

 

[skoldpadda]

Just call. I have had the nut low with 2nd possible nut high 3 way in Omaha before and ended up getting 1/6th of the pot. Never raise with just the nut low.

 

[Alon Ipser]

although it's a weird hand because of the weirdy min-betting.

Just realised you only have about $1.60 left and you're playing NL (??)

Actually it's a .10 game so it's not min. bets. I have very little money at this site so I buy in with the minimum ($4) to avoid losing everything to a bad beat. Not the way I would play with a normal BR but I've started with nothing and am trying to work my way up.

There's five players in this hand, so even if you get quartered (and there's a good chance you will be), you're still going to come out slightly ahead.

I'd stick it all in here. Taking a quarter of a five player pot is still profitable, so you want to maximise that. Who knows, if the other players are loose enough you might even end up taking half.

The only problem is going to be if more than one other player has A2 in their hand.

My exact thinking here. I was just wondering if it was correct. I could have made a move on the turn but checking with 5 in the pot I thought I would come out ahead and still had the chance at the straight.

Don't forget the rake. Not sure what site this was at.

When you consider the rake, you might be justified in only calling here.

Umm, it's the site where cheaters play but I dont think there's a problem at the nickel/dime tables. 5% rake I believe

 

[Alon Ipser]

Oops, forgot to post the results with the last post.

*** RIVER *** [8s 7h Qs 4d] [Ks]
BLS12 - Checks
WINNINGMAMA - Bets $0.50
KATREYA - Calls $0.50
SEDEIGHTED - Calls $0.50
ALON IPSER - All-In(Raise) $2.15 to $2.15
BLS12 - Calls $2.15
WINNINGMAMA - Calls $1.65
KATREYA - Folds
SEDEIGHTED - Calls $1.65
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ALON IPSER - Shows [Ad 4c 2d 5s] (One pair, fours)
BLS12 - Shows [9s 2s Kh 8h] (Flush, king high)
WINNINGMAMA - Mucks
SEDEIGHTED - Mucks
BLS12 Collects $7.88 from main pot
ALON IPSER Collects $7.87 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($16.55) | Rake ($0.80)
Board [8s 7h Qs 4d Ks]
Seat 1: BLS12 (big blind) won Total ($7.88) HI$7.88) with Flush, king high [9s 2s Kh 8h - B:Ks,B:Qs,P:9s,B:8s,P:2s]
Seat 3: WINNINGMAMA HI: [Mucked] [6d Kc 7d Kd]
Seat 4: DRACO MALFOY Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: KATREYA Folded on the RIVER
Seat 6: SEDEIGHTED HI: [Mucked] [3c Ac Qc Ah]
Seat 7: HILOSILVER Folded on the FLOP
Seat 8: ALON IPSER (dealer) won Total ($7.87) All-In HI:with One pair, fours [Ad 4c 2d 5s - B:4d,P:4c,P:Ad,B:Ks,B:Qs] LO$7.87) [P:Ad,P:2d,B:4d,B:7h,B:8s]
Seat 9: PATCH777 (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

 

[skoldpadda]

in the long run this is a losing play

 

[dj11]

Let me ramble a bit here. Premise; You got lucky you did not get quartered or worse.

You started the hand with $3.55, got all in and in this case did a bit better than a double up. $7.87.

Doing this in my head so correct if wrong.

Total pot at showdown was $17.35 (of which $.80 went to rake = $16.55)

Pot if you don't shove, but only call, and those behind you also only call $11.75 (of which 60 cents to rake = $11.15.)

Your stack without raising, would be down to $1.65, you split the pot and would have won 5.57 for a new stack size of $7.22

$7.87 vs $7.22 At first glance it looks like a good bet. However !!!
The bet for that extra 65 cents cost you 82.5 cents! Along with the very real possibility that you could have been quartered. Makes this a poor decision in mind mind.

*****When I started this post, it was a clear as mountain air, but since I can't type fast enough, I lost half the thought.*****

Even if we add in the possible call by Katreya, who folded to the raise, you only add maybe 23.5 cents (half the pot - rake) and your stack size is now 7.45. Total profit from all that risk becomes +$.42 for the shove vs no shove.

Now the case where you do quarter.

If you shove and quarter, your new stack size is $3.94.

If you just call and quarter, and no one else shoves, your new stack size is ($1.65 + 2.78 + {possible .23.5 cents}) either 4.43, or 4.67 (dependant on Katreya calling.)

Take the bigger numbers,,,,7.45 or 4.67. If you consider you started with 3.55, and ran the very real possibility of quartering, you MIGHT end up with $1.12 gain. If you still get quartered but Katreya still folds, you end up with $1.02 gain.

I started this post thinking I could prove it was a bad decision to shove.

@@@@ and to think I did this with just a pencil, wow, I'm soo hi tech!

AND BTW, I am now totally confused, and will never play Omaha again!

 

[dj11]

Add this

If you get quartered, you end up this way;
shove ...................new stack = $3.94
no shove.................new stack = $4.67. +$.73

if you do NOT get quartered;
shove ...................new stack = $7.87
no shove ................new stack = $7.22 -$.65

The difference between +73 cents and negative 65 cents is $1.38.

I would love to say this clearly shows that the shove was bad news, and I believe it was, but I apologize for not making this crystal clear.

 

[Alon Ipser]

I would love to say this clearly shows that the shove was bad news, and I believe it was, but I apologize for not making this crystal clear.

Absolutely crystal clear. While the gain is comparable to the loss, I believe I get quartered more times than not in this situation making my decision a losing one in the long run as skoldpadda stated. Does anyone have some type of chart that shows gains or losses for bets/calls if you get quartered? Probably not.

 

[Alon Ipser]

I just went to set up a chart and figured out I don't need one. Anything over half the pot sized bet/call against one player is a loser if quartered. Anything over a pot sized bet/call against 2 players is a loser if quartered.

Any bet/call against 3 players is 1/4 of the original pot gained if quartered. So the only way raising is a losing play in the long run is if I get 1/6 the pot more than I get 1/2. And is that the case when there are 3 others in the pot?

 

[Alon Ipser]

Any bet/call against 3 players is 1/4 of the original pot gained if quartered. So the only way raising is a losing play in the long run is if I get 1/6 the pot more than I get 1/2. And is that the case when there are 3 others in the pot?

Quoting myself

Forgot the rake, so it's probably a loser in the long run if I raise and don't just call.