NLHE ring table hand #2

Jesus Lederer

Jesus Lederer

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full tilt poker Game #487873034: Table Ellsworth (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:39:41 ET - 2006/03/09
Seat 2: cracky 2000 ($22.10)
Seat 3: drkrimson ($15)
Seat 4: Canton Joe ($43.60)
Seat 5: rvolk86 ($56.85)
Seat 6: Jesus Lederer ($75.05)
cracky 2000 posts the small blind of $0.25
drkrimson posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Jesus Lederer [As 6d]
Canton Joe folds
rvolk86 raises to $1.50
Jesus Lederer calls $1.50
cracky 2000 folds
drkrimson calls $1
*** FLOP *** [6c Ad Qd]
drkrimson checks
rvolk86 bets $2
Jesus Lederer raises to $6
drkrimson folds
rvolk86 raises to $12

What would you do? This situation is similar to my other thread, but the difference is that now i had a better hand than just a pair, i had more chips than him and i had some notes on the player.

rvolk86 rarely raised preflop (he liked limping with marginal hands), but whenever he raised preflop, he fired a continuation bet at the flop, which generally took the pot right there (he never reached a showdown when he raised preflop).
The only hand where he came to a showdown was one where he limped preflop with J9, he made a pot bet at a JXX flop (got 1 caller), the turn was blank and it was checked, in the river came a 9 and he made a pot bet. The opponent called and mucked.

The other thread was really interesting, there were some good replies althought it wasn´t very clear to me which was the best decision (according to all the reasons given it seems that folding was the right decision). I hope this thread will get good replies and i hope i made the right decision on the hand.
 
Four Dogs

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This time I push back. Unlike Proplayer, volk merely reraised as opposed to risking his entire stack, indicating a strong top pair. Don't slow play this hand. You have got 2 top and bottom pair, but if he pairs his kicker your beat. He also has a chance of pairing the queen or the turn card, probably counterfeiting your 6's and again winning with his kicker. As Bill Hallorian said in NLHE ring table hand #1, top pair gives implied odds, they don't get them. You've got him covered, put him all in. I'm willing to bet he calls. I hope this doesn't sound inconsistent with my last reply. I don't think it is.
 
tenbob

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Looks very like a big ace raise to me. The dilemma here is withir its AK or AQ, certainly not AA or KK.

I think its a push here as well. Without a doubt.
 
Tammy

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Yes, I have to agree with the two gentlemen before me. I am a little worried about that Q on the flop though. But, I do think pushing is the answer. His weak raise probably indicates that he does not hold the Q. Like our friend Dorkus says, "Minimum raises are bad, mmm-Kay?" ;)
 
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ChuckTs

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66 is also a possibility but very unlikely...i think the way you describe him he'd probably limp instead of raise with it.
i guess i'd push here too
now that you mention it i'd be a little concerned about the AQ but you cant lay this monster down
 
robwhufc

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Four Dogs said:
This time I push back. . I hope this doesn't sound inconsistent with my last reply. I don't think it is.
:eek: I'm not being deliberately antagonistic, honest i'm not, but i'm switching too! The last one was a definate call (or raise, it was pretty much the same thing) in my opinion - his opponents most likely holding was a pair of jacks and JL had Kings. Also he had v.good pot odds, a small liability ($19) and was in the BB disguising the strength of his hand.

Here, like TB i'd narrow his opponents cards down to just AK and AQ. You're beat (or at least well behind) with AQ, pot odds are low, and your liability is much greater ($56.85). I'd call - he's made it cheap for you to stay in the hand and see what he does next, I dont think he'll fold to an all-in, so by calling you're giving yourself an extra opportunity to get out if you really dont like the look of the board.

And I dont agree with Juicee really (sorry!). That small bet looks like a trap to me (that's certainly how i'd play AQ here).

I dont care if this goes against what everyone else says (!), but if you're going all-in anyway, why not see an extra card and get a bit better feel for the hand? The all-in move is only better if you think opponent is going to fold, and his re-raising into an A flop surely suggests he wont.
 
KillerKat

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I've got caught so many times with two pair. Its never as great as it seems. Also as one of them is the bottom pair its very vulnerable if ya ask me. The turn and river could bring all sorts of horrible cards. Knocking you right out of it. I say call and see what the turn is. And if its a low card, with no help to him hopefully, push right back at him.

But I still would not rule him out of having trips!! unlikely though, but god damn it ya just never know.
 
ChuckTs

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i like robs idea
you both still have plenty of cash on the table and a call would give you a chance to throw your hand or push if you got a good read on him on fourth
 
Four Dogs

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Well, there's no chance that he bets back at you like this without at least the Ace. And his confident pot sized reraise says he 's pretty sure he's got the best kicker. Only AK,AJ or Ace + a draw fit. AA also fits, but the fact that 2 Aces are already accounted for make it unlikely. I'm not buying the pocket Queens, the preflop raise was way too weak for that. I would have expected a bigger reraise on the flop for both QQ and AQ. My feeling is that with your own Full House draw,5:1 with 2 cards to come. Your at least a 3:1 favorite. I still push all-in and hold my breath.
 
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ChuckTs

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Four Dogs said:
Well, there's no chance that he bets back at you like this without at least the Ace. And his confident pot sized reraise says he 's pretty sure he's got the best kicker. Only AK,AQ,AJ fit. Only the queen should scare you. I'm not buying the pocket Queens. That preflop raise was way too weak for that and I would have expected all-in on the flop after your reraise. I'd say its 33% for each of the possible holdings except that there's also the possibility that he has the Ace + a draw, maybe both draws. My feeling is that with your own Full House draw,5:1 with 2 cards to come. Your at least a 3:1 favorite. I still push all-in and hold my breath.

ooh thats another option - maybe hes got a RF draw
many many outs for that....but i think the betting's a little too strong for that
 
Jesus Lederer

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robwhufc said:
Here, like TB i'd narrow his opponents cards down to just AK and AQ. You're beat (or at least well behind) with AQ, pot odds are low, and your liability is much greater ($56.85). I'd call - he's made it cheap for you to stay in the hand and see what he does next, I dont think he'll fold to an all-in, so by calling you're giving yourself an extra opportunity to get out if you really dont like the look of the board.

I don´t see your point on just calling here. You said that if i push he won´t fold, so if he has AK i have to take advantage of it and put all my money on the pot when i´m the big favourite.
If i just call i´m only going to fold on the turn if a K or Q comes. If a K comes, he bets and i fold, then why didn´t i pushed on the flop if i thought he had AK? And if a Q comes, then i´m either counterfeited or against a full house. If my 6s were counterfeited by his kicker, then i face the same dilemma as before: Why not push if if think i´m big favourite and he is going to call? But if he made the full house, why not folding on the flop if i´m going to fold in the turn anyway? Now if i call and a rag comes in the turn, most likely he will make a big bet if he holds AK or AQ, and how will i know which of those hands does he has?

There is one point which i agree with Rob and disagree with Tammy and FD: His minraise seems to be a sign of real strength. He could be doing that with top two pair. If he has a good hand, probably he won´t try to make me to fold by making a huge raise, instead he will try to induce me to call making a little raise.
It´s something similar to playing AA and JJ preflop: Most players will make big raises with JJ because they don´t want to be called by face cards that can hit in the flop, but if they have AA or KK they´ll make lower raises to try to get some callers and make more money.
Of course what i said doesn´t applies for every player and every situation, because each player have his own betting patterns and maybe this player would reraise more if he had two pair. Another fact to consider in this minraise situation is that maybe TPTK means a really strength hand to him and he will play it as if he has the nuts (actually if we stop to think for a while, we can realize that if he has AK, his hand is similar to mine at "NLHE ring table hand", where most of us thought that pushing was right).

ChuckTs said:
maybe hes got a RF draw
many many outs for that

This is a point i wanted to touch and compare with my first thread.
On the first hand, i think my push was wrong because if he had a draw it was most likely a coinflip. I had a vulnerable pair that could be easily beaten by a set or even a draw (with an overcard). There were few possible hands that i could beat by a good advantage, so i was going to be taking a race or being a big underdog. My overpair wasn´t worth the push.
But now this situation was different. There was only 1 hand where i could be a huge underdog, and something important i took in consideration in this hand was that any draw he would be playing would be welcomed. If he had any flush draw (even the RF one) i would have a very good advantage, so this was the time to make him pay if he had any draw or a strong A, even though i knew i was running the risk of being against AQ.

So i pushed...
 
robwhufc

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Jesus Lederer said:
I don´t see your point on just calling here. You said that if i push he won´t fold, so if he has AK i have to take advantage of it and put all my money on the pot when i´m the big favourite.
If i just call i´m only going to fold on the turn if a K or Q comes. If a K comes, he bets and i fold, then why didn´t i pushed on the flop if i thought he had AK? And if a Q comes, then i´m either counterfeited or against a full house. If my 6s were counterfeited by his kicker, then i face the same dilemma as before: Why not push if if think i´m big favourite and he is going to call? But if he made the full house, why not folding on the flop if i´m going to fold in the turn anyway? Now if i call and a rag comes in the turn, most likely he will make a big bet if he holds AK or AQ, and how will i know which of those hands does he has?
OK JL, there are 3 options.

1) Fold - simple enough.
2) All-in. Advantages over call - opponent may fold (though he'll only fold a worse hand than you've got, so do you want him to fold?).
3) Call. Advantages over all-in - a) opponent may be bluffing, and may fire off another bet to try and push you off pot (may sound stupid move, but i'm guilty of doing this more than once;)). b) you can still get out of hand if you REALLY dont like the look of it.

2 and 3 will probably have the same outcome, so I personally think 3 is the better option. I'll turn the question back to you. Why do you think all-in is better than call?
 
robwhufc

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Jesus Lederer said:
This is a point i wanted to touch and compare with my first thread.
On the first hand, i think my push was wrong because if he had a draw it was most likely a coinflip. I had a vulnerable pair that could be easily beaten by a set or even a draw (with an overcard). There were few possible hands that i could beat by a good advantage, so i was going to be taking a race or being a big underdog. My overpair wasn´t worth the push.
.

The last hand was different, because his most likely holding (by far) was a pair of Jacks - you had kings so get all the money in. And if he's on a draw, even a 50/50 one, then once he's stuck his money in, you're getting pot odds all the way. Here it's much more guesswork - he's much more likely to have the hand that beats you (even though there are only 3 or so hands as opposed to 7), and you've no idea how much you're going to have to pay to see hand to the end.
 
Four Dogs

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Now that I look at this again, I think your right JL. To come back over the top like that after such a small bet, (less than 1/2 the pot?) could indicate something else. I still think that AK is a strong possibility, but I've got to give more consideration to AQ.

Why don't you hold on to those cojones a bit longer JQ.
 
Jesus Lederer

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robwhufc said:
OK JL, there are 3 options.

1) Fold - simple enough.
2) All-in. Advantages over call - opponent may fold (though he'll only fold a worse hand than you've got, so do you want him to fold?).
3) Call. Advantages over all-in - a) opponent may be bluffing, and may fire off another bet to try and push you off pot (may sound stupid move, but i'm guilty of doing this more than once;)). b) you can still get out of hand if you REALLY dont like the look of it.

2 and 3 will probably have the same outcome, so I personally think 3 is the better option. I'll turn the question back to you. Why do you think all-in is better than call?

You said that the advantage of the all in over the call is that opponent may fold. I don´t agree with that (in this particular situation) because according to most opinions (including yours) the most likely hands that opponent may have are AK or AQ, and in both situations is almost sure that he´s going to call any bet (especially thinking that he reraised). In my opinion the advantage of the push instead of the call is that i´m putting all my chips in the pot when i think i´m the big favourite, and also i´m not risking getting a scary card on the turn that only would have helped my opponent if he was the underdog at the flop.
I´m not discarding the fact that he may have AQ, but if i think he has it, then the moment to fold is just after he makes his reraise.

Of course if i push he´s only going to fold a worse hand than mine, but if i just call and he´s holding crap, then as you said he may attempt a bluff. This would be great because the only thing i would have to do is to call his bluff, but then it comes a big problem: how i´m suppose to know if his bet is a bluff or a value bet with AQ? Either way he´s going to bet at the turn no matter what comes, so if i decide to call or push at the turn no matter what comes (except K or Q), then why didn´t i push at the flop?

When you say that i can still get out of the hand if i really dont like the look of it, the only thing i can imagine is that on the turn comes a K or a Q. In both cases it´s an easy fold at the turn, but that easy decision is the consequence of a previous bad decision. If a K comes, then i´m folding to a hand that i was big favourite at the flop and didn´t take advantage of that at the right moment.

I have one question to you: If you call and in the turn comes a blank, are you going to call if he makes a big bet or pushes?
 
robwhufc

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Sorry JL, I didn't answer because I thought we were going round in circles, and this is such a non-event subject, but i'll try and clarify argument again.

Firstly, once you've made the decision to go all-in, there are 2 ways to get your money in - up front (all-in), or behind (calling down). The end results the same - all of your chips are in, and all of his are in - whoever has the best hand wins.

In this scenario, what could rvolk have? answer, anything!

a) he may have total rags, and be trying to push you off the pot thinking you'll fold to sustained action (who's got the biggest balls?). You have to think this is unlikely, but if he's done it to you before?

b) a smaller pair, and be trying to guage whether you really have got a pair of aces. V. risky play if he was, bearing in mind the flop and your re-raise.

c) a pair of aces and weak kicker. May have, judged on his weak re-reraise, but that's a bad play from him.

d) A monster hand - AA, QQ, 66.

e) A flush / straight draw. Unlikely - why would he re-raise you and not see another card as cheaply as possible?

f) A strong hand that he thinks is a winner (i.e AK or AQ) - the most likely holding in my opinion. He had the opportunity to check behind you, but he raised your raise. In my opinion he wants you to go all-in, and if you do, he'll click call in a nano-second (and groan if he's got AK).

So what are the pros and cons of calling (with a view to attacking post turn) over pushing all-in.

1) If he's got a) he may try another stab (and you can then go over the top).
2) If he's got AQ and diamond flops, he may fold to all-in (unlikely i know but...).
3) If a K flops, you can then give serious consideration to folding (I wouldn't, but what cards could he still be betting with?).
4) You end up all-in, you win with 2 pair over his AK - he's thinking "why the hell didn't he go all-in with A6?". You know you were in reality all-in from the outset, but you've put doubts into an astute players mind.

Disadvantages of calling (and giving free card)

5) He was chasing flush or straight and he hits (if he's stupid enough to play draw like that, he'll probably call all-in anyway).

6) He had Ace and weak kicker (10 down to 7), which he would have folded to all-in, but hits kicker on turn.

All these are pretty unlikely, but it's weighing up 1,2,3 & 4 against 5 and 6. As I said, in reality it's pretty much a non-argument as you both end up with all your chips in - it's just a bit of "tweaking" really (and I would call myself knowing i was 99% sure to go all-in post turn).
 
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tenbob

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Just a quick side question JL. You called a raise with A-6o. What sort of flop were you hoping for ? What was your criteria for continuing in the hand once you seen a flop. Two pair or better ? If thats the case id push no doubt.

Nice post Rob........ rep +
 
ChuckTs

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i have to agree with rob's calling option
like he said if he's got a weaker hand, why push him off?
also if he's bluffing or betting at a weaker hand then why not let him bet into you on the turn and see what kind of fell you get from him then and decide to push/fold then
though this reraise does smell really fishy to me
 
robwhufc

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ChuckTs said:
also if he's bluffing or betting at a weaker hand then why not let him bet into you on the turn and see what kind of tell you get from him then and decide to push/fold then
Just to clarify my post - a fold post turn is highly unlikely, once you've committed to the pot with a call, you're all-in - with one possible exception, the King.
 
Four Dogs

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Time to wrap it up JL. Let's see the rest of the hand.
 
Jesus Lederer

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Ok FD, i didn´t have too much time to post (school and soccer are killing me) but if you want to know the result, here it is: I pushed, he called and showed AK.
 
ChuckTs

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Jesus Lederer said:
Ok FD, i didn´t have too much time to post (school and soccer are killing me) but if you want to know the result, here it is: I pushed, he called and showed AK.

ah the life of a young chilean man

for us Canadians it's beer and hockey...nutz to school :)
 
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I don't see what more you could ask for when playing A6os. I say push right there. IMO, don't call a preflop raise with A6os in the first place.
 
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