nl$100 FR, JJ OTB, flop line ??

tenbob

tenbob

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Reads Ziich is playing very laggy at 38/26/2 the min-raiser is a bit of a fish and has been minraising-calling lots. The pre-flop call can be looked at in different ways, even though I hate either 4-betting or folding here.

The flop is what im interested in. Its basically as good as we can expect without flopping a set. Flop line with a player left to act ?



pokerstars Game #17546919158: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/05/19 - 16:24:01 (ET)
Table 'Jena III' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: ziich ($103.65 in chips)
Seat 3: mikey737 ($109.20 in chips)
Seat 4: wilkie ($107.65 in chips)
Seat 5: tenbob ($109.10 in chips)
Seat 6: anygro ($106.50 in chips)
Seat 7: xbilly23x ($134.60 in chips)
Seat 8: PoliGold ($44.90 in chips)
anygro: posts small blind $0.50
xbilly23x: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tenbob [Jd Js]
PoliGold: raises $1 to $2
ziich: raises $5 to $7
mikey737: folds
wilkie: folds
tenbob: calls $7
anygro: folds
xbilly23x: folds
PoliGold: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Qh 2s 9h]
PoliGold: checks
ziich: bets $14
tenbob: ??????
 
D

Dr_Dick

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If you call, this may give PoliGold a decent reason to call and you get little or no information. Also a call may not slow down ziich. If ziich is laggy he may just as well fire another barrel on the turn. Then what do you do?

IMO, you really only have 2 lines here..fold and give ziich some respect for his LAG style. Even LAG's get dealt a good hand and hit a flop once in a while. Or, you can raise to see where you are in the hand. If PoliGold has anything you will find out. Ziich is the problem. A min raise to $28 is easy to call, but at the same time raising half your stack to find out if Poli or Ziich hit their hands is not that great a play either.

If you don't opt to fold, then I would say you raise to $28 and fold to any pressure. Poli most likely folds, Ziich calls being a LAG but it will be extremely hard for Ziich to follow up with a turn bet if Ziich doesn't have anything.
 
arahel_jazz

arahel_jazz

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I think there are too many hands that have you dominated here to commit half of your stack. You have two outs against at least one overpair and draws on the board, and are out of position against a calling fish.

Fold.
 
tenbob

tenbob

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Thought this one would get some more discussion tbh. Anyway, some thoughts with Irexes on it.

here thoughts on this hand
Tenbob says:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/nl-100-fr-jj-otb-flop-line-114245/
Irexes says:
It's raise or fold for me
Irexes says:
With the right reads I raise
Tenbob says:
oh God, i rekon its a flat call
Tenbob says:
float it
Tenbob says:
everyone is afraid to post thoughts
Tenbob says:
its a very very trick one
Irexes says:
Too worried about nasty cards for me
Irexes says:
and him being a bit of a donk is he floatable
Irexes says:
or does he bet the turn regardless
Tenbob says:
a good lag dosnt bet the turn without a great hand
Tenbob says:
that the power of a lag
Irexes says:
yup
Tenbob says:
make the small mistakes, and play optimally on the big streets
Tenbob says:
ie turn and river
Tenbob says:
so a decent lag is checking the turn
Tenbob says:
anyway
Irexes says:
I don't think I'm far enough into it yet to understand it
Irexes says:
so I'd fold more often than not
Tenbob says:
if i float he is either C/R or fold
Tenbob says:
so bet fold turn is likely the optimal line
Irexes says:
I can buy that
Tenbob says:
gonna bump it and go to bed
Tenbob says:

Irexes says:
but I'm not good enough yet to work out when it's the optimum play and when it's pissing money to call there
Tenbob says:
well its simple
Tenbob says:
AJ+ and all pairs, c-bet this flop
Irexes says:
Does AQ, KK and even 99 not bet as well?
Irexes says:
cause of flush draw?
Tenbob says:
of course they do
Tenbob says:
but the thing is, if i float, i can bluff the flush if it hits + all the smaller pairs and AK give up on the turn
Irexes says:
ahhhh this is wise
Irexes says:
how big is the turn float bet?
Tenbob says:
$14
Irexes says:
ooo that's cheap
Irexes says:
I like
Tenbob says:
+ its dead money if im ahead
 
zachvac

zachvac

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I think this is a call here. Against a fish who's likely to call behind, we're getting good odds on our money and have the best hand the good percentage of the time. Especially with a lag like this he'd definitely cbet an AK and if he was 3-betting light (any reads on that?) then he's cbetting this flop. I'd call this here, and probably check-fold turn, unless of course it's a J.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Why would we bet a blank turn here? We don't fold out anything that beats us (is AQ folding here, especially when one is a fish? Not many fish know how to fold TPTK and a small bet like that won't do the job even if he would) and nothing worse calls. We have like the exact dividing hand where an opponent would call/fold turn bet, unless they think you're making a move and make a hero call with TT or something. We have enough showdown value to just check this, and as mentioned most players are not double barreling this with air.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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PF I'm perfectly happy 4-betting and getting it in against a guy like this.

Flop is a little too drawy to smooth call but our hand is best a lot of the time here. I like raising because basically he's probably sane enough to fold without AQ, a set or KK+.

Hero raises to $34 and folds to a shove imo.

If he calls we give up without a jack on the turn I think.
 
Lo-Dog

Lo-Dog

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Against such a lag\maniac I would probably 4 bet PF.

As played I am raising the flop and then crying if I get reraised.

I think I see what you are saying about floating here but I'm not good enough to know what to do when all sorts of cards hit the turn.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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i don't think i ever raise here. i think i just float this and then reevaluate turn.
 
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