Lost all my money with AK, did I misplay this?

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Bentheman87

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6 handed Sng but 1 seat is reserved so 5 players. Blinds are $.50/$1. I've got $50 and everyone else has about $30-$100. I have AK os and raise to $3.50, the button reraises to $15. I've only been at this table for like 20 hands but I noticed he was playing a lot of pots and always raised in late position if it was folded to him. So I'm out of position and figured it was fold or shove. I go all in for $60 he calls and has JJ and wins. Did I misplay AK here? Is the right play to just call? I figured I was OoP and if I called and missed the flop he would bet no matter what he had, even AQ and force me to fold, so if I shove at least I get to see all 5 cards, getting full value for two high cards.
 
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William Martin

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For me, it's a fold when you are re-raised. The only hands that can call a raise like that out of position, in my opinion are q-q, k-k and a-a. And then you are all in - unless you have A-A and want to make the obvious play of just flat calling him.

I think people always over play A-K. All you have is Ace high remember. For all your money, I'm looking to get my cash in in better shape than that.

Fold after re-raise.
 
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switch0723

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I disagree with that. You said he raises a lot. Therfore against his range we are a huge favourite. I shove this all day. You are right in OP that a,k is best when all 5 community cards are dealt as opposed to just seeing the flop. Against a loose players range i think at worst we are 50/50 so i shove this all day.
 
arkadiy

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If you really did have a read on him as super loose aggressive, I say shove. 8 times out of 10 he will fold.
 
rwilson

rwilson

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standard fold for me too.. could think of better times to invest my whole stack than with AKoff preflop. I suppose it's a tough one if he really was super loose.. although you would have to assume even the loosest players raising 15X would be holding some sort of pocket pair, which would put you slightly behind in a coin flip for your entire stack. Best scenario he could have been holding somewhere between AQ - A10, or even AK as well, but I don't like the odds in this situation at all. Better off letting the guy keep overbetting his hands until you're certain you have a better one. I think people overestimate the value of AKoff sometimes too.. It's EV preflop is about on par with that of AJsuited.
 
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switch0723

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standard fold for me too.. could think of better times to invest my whole stack than with AKoff preflop.

Ummm when? surely there are only 4 hands better than this. We cant afford to wait for one of those, pushing now is definately teh solution
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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"always raised in late position if it was folded to him." This wasn't the case here. How many hands have you played of the 20 you've been at the table for? What's he think of you? Even loose players don't reraise a tight early position raiser with air. You know you're likely flipping here and I wouldn't want to risk it all on a coin flip in this situation. Fold and wait.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Ummm when? surely there are only 4 hands better than this. We cant afford to wait for one of those, pushing now is definately teh solution

4 hands better???? 13 hands are better or at least ahead.
 
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baconn

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shove, sometimes you have to be willing to race for a win
 
ChuckTs

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please baconn, enough with the one-liners with no reasoning.

ben, if you want to play shortstacked in a ring game, make sure you know your shortstack strategy - AK with 50BBs vs someone who 'plays a lot of pots' should be a standard pf stack, especially with your fold equity.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Is this a ring game or a Sng? Do you have $50 or $60? What position are you in? Is this live? Again I would fold in this spot as I've either got only ~15% of my stack invested with an A high hand and I have to think I'll have more opportunities to take your villain's $$.
 
Chevren

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I dont think that getting all in preflop with AK was necessarily a bad move I would likely be doing the same thing but I havent played over 25nl yet, but it is certainly not because of this

You said he raises a lot. Therfore against his range we are a huge favourite. I shove this all day.

or this

Ummm when? surely there are only 4 hands better than this. We cant afford to wait for one of those, pushing now is definately teh solution

He said he raises a lot when folded too a standard small ball lag strategy which generally speaking doesnt involve getting into large pots preflop with marginal hands.

Sure there are few hands that you would rather have in this situation but there are alot of hands that are ahead right now and few hands that we are ahead of that make this move.

I would be stacking here because we can use the fact that we arent often dominated with AK to our advantage and represent a stronger hand and potentially fold out hands like JJ TT and if we are called hopefully we are fliping and maybe getting a loose call from AQ
 
rwilson

rwilson

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Ummm when? surely there are only 4 hands better than this. We cant afford to wait for one of those, pushing now is definately teh solution

I can think of at least 14 hands that are ahead of AKoff heads up. That's just my opinion though what I said before, personally I wouldn't be risking my whole stack on a coin flip when i'm fairly certain I'll be slightly behind from the start. A lot of people do it though.. If it's late in a MTT or SnG or something it's a different scenario, but I wouldn't be calling an all-in raise here in a ring game, unless I was fairly certain the person was likely to be raising this amount with a lower ace or medium-high suited connectors (KQ, QJ suited or something).
 
rwilson

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just to add to that.. AK is in the top 5 or 6 hands for EV cause it plays well and makes money in multi-way pots if you hit top pair (that's AKsuited, AKoff is slightly lower down the table again). Statistically it's behind a lot of hands when you're calling an all-in raise heads up.. maybe only slightly behind some, but you're still betting even money when the odds say you're behind.
 
Chevren

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He wasnt calling an all in here though he shoved all in and was called there is a big difference.
 
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Bentheman87

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Oops I said Sng it was a ring game, I had $50 and it was at Full Tilt.
 
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Bentheman87

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If by better you guys mean a hand that has me crushed, there isn't 14 hands or 4 hands there's only 2 hands, AA or KK.
 
Chiefer

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If by better you guys mean a hand that has me crushed, there isn't 14 hands or 4 hands there's only 2 hands, AA or KK.

by this statement you don't mind going in a slight underdog. to be honest ben, you seem like more of a gambler than a poker player. you don't seem to think it through. from the posts that i have read of yours, you see to pretty cards and it's an insta-push. do you see how vulnerable AK is. a pair of dueces can beat it.
 
Tammy

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If by better you guys mean a hand that has me crushed, there isn't 14 hands or 4 hands there's only 2 hands, AA or KK.
Or any pocket pair puts you in a race situation. Maybe this is why you lose so many races, if you over value AK?
 
Chiefer

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Or any pocket pair puts you in a race situation. Maybe this is why you lose so many races, if you over value AK?

this^^^^ i've said this to him before. i just don't think he gets it.

no offense ben.
 
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Bentheman87

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"by this statement you don't mind going in a slight underdog. to be honest ben, you seem like more of a gambler than a poker player. you don't seem to think it through. from the posts that i have read of yours, you see to pretty cards and it's an insta-push. do you see how vulnerable AK is. a pair of dueces can beat it."

Well I'm still not sure if I made the right move that's why I created this thread. I thought about it a long time before shoving. And I kno Ak is vulnerable, but you have to understand that only two hands in hold'em dominate it meaning only two hands are a big favorite over AK. You can't say the same thing about any other hand in hold'em except the three big pairs. I mean, it wasn't a disaster that he had JJ since I was almost 50% to win. If I had JJ or 10 10 or 9 9 here I would no trouble getting away from it preflop.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Fold equity is what makes your push +EV. Is your villain here the kind of guy who will fold to your push after putting in a significant portion of his stack? Let's say you estimate his range at AQ, AK, 10 10+. Your equity against this range is less than 50% (~45%), so if he'll never fold to your push you'll lose money over the long run.
 
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Bentheman87

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"Fold equity is what makes your push +EV. Is your villain here the kind of guy who will fold to your push after putting in a significant portion of his stack? Let's say you estimate his range at AQ, AK, 10 10+. Your equity against this range is less than 50% (~45%), so if he'll never fold to your push you'll lose money over the long run."

So you're saying if this exact same (or very similar) situation were to come up again I should fold? And I would say I had fold equity, he had I think $60 or $70 and put in a reraise for $15, so he could have folded and still had around $50. If I were him I might fold JJ in that position after a shove, but then again I should have known he was loose and wouldn't fold medium pairs. And please explain to me how I'll "lose money over the long run." Are you saying I should have been afraid of AA or KK here? Or are you saying that since I'm a 1.2:1 underdog that tiny tiny edge against me will cost me a lot of money?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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In this case, your equity in this $100 pot is right around $45 if you assume he'll call with the range I suggested above. So if you play this hand 100 times AND he calls every time with this range you'll put in $5000 and win $4500 (so your net loss will be $500). Now if you think he'll fold more than 33% (33 times out of 100 you'll win his $15 or $495 over 100 hands) of the time you'll come out ahead. I know I disregarded the $1.50 in the blinds.
 
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