Live cash game - Am I a donkey for this?

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xCashin_inx

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Playing a $1/$2 cash game at a club a few nights ago, this went down and I didnt know what to think. What do you guys think about it.

Me $125 on the button
Villian 1 - SB ($450)
Villian 2 - $140

Villian 1 was very very loose and very very agressive, Villian 2 just sat down and I didnt know much about him.

Villian 2 makes it $10 to go, I call with (9d9s) and Villian 1 calls as well in the SB

Flop comes - (9h3h3s)

Villian 1 bets $10 and Villian 2 calls, I go all in.

Villian 1 turns over a 3 but says he folds. Very suprised by that but he was a great player.

Villian 2 thinks about it and calls, he turns over AhKh

Turn and river didnt really matter, he ended up making his flush but I still had him crushed.

I win a nice pot, about $275 and Villian 2 stands up and says "F***ing donkey, your so bad, how do you go all in there?" I asked him why he called with nothing and that made him even more mad, "You could broke us both if you didnt suck at poker, how could I put you on a full house when you push that much on the flop. no good player would do that" A few hands later I broke him for his last like 15 bucks with my QJ two pair against his KK.

I was thinking, did I really play it that bad? Its hard for me to say I played it bad when I doubled up when I knew I had the best hand but what do you guys think about this? Was he just furious he lost or did I really play that badly?
 
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KenFischer

KenFischer

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I was thinking, did I really play it that bad? Its hard for me to say I played it bad when I doubled up when I knew I had the best hand but what do you guys think about this? Was he just furious he lost or did I really play that badly?

Just because it worked out in your favor doesn't really mean that you played a hand well. :)

In this case, I think it makes sense to protect your hand against bigger pairs with a reraise, but I probably would have made a more standard raise (hoping to trap one of them or having them push into you). Your guy with the flush draw wasn't going anywhere, and you probably could have gotten a few more chips out of the guy with the trips but he got pushed out.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Who gives a shit what he thinks?

Preflop is a little more debatable, but still fine in my book. Postflop you could go for a smaller, more enticing raise, but if you feel he's got a hand he can call with then by all means just shove it. You stacked a guy and he got mad, who cares what he says.
 
bob_tiger

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so what was your hand? and yea its your money and you can play however you want.
 
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Bentheman87

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You're all in bet was bad, this is a spot where you want to slowplay, smooth calling represents something like ace 9 or maybe a flush draw. Villian 1 is very aggressive so he might think both of you twos' calls meant weakness, and more importantly you have both of them drawing nearly dead. Think of it like this, imagine you were both deeper stacked and villian 2 folded his AK suited, you won a pot but if you slowplayed and let villian 2 hit his nut flush you might have win a lot more compared to shoving on the flop.

"Villian 1 turns over a 3 but says he folds. Very suprised by that but he was a great player."

I don't believe that no way he's folding trip 3s here no matter how much action he gets, there was a preflop raise and a call so there's not any threes in either you or villian 2's hands. And he's not allowed to show his hand while you and villian 2 are still in the pot.

And btw villian 2 was just mad that he got all his money in drawing dead, he probably put you on JJ or 10 10 and thought he was slightly better than 50% to win.
 
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xCashin_inx

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You're all in bet was bad, this is a spot where you want to slowplay, smooth calling represents something like ace 9 or maybe a flush draw. Villian 1 is very aggressive so he might think both of you twos' calls meant weakness, and more importantly you have both of them drawing nearly dead. Think of it like this, imagine you were both deeper stacked and villian 2 folded his AK suited, you won a pot but if you slowplayed and let villian 2 hit his nut flush you might have win a lot more compared to shoving on the flop.

"Villian 1 turns over a 3 but says he folds. Very suprised by that but he was a great player."

I don't believe that no way he's folding trip 3s here no matter how much action he gets, there was a preflop raise and a call so there's not any threes in either you or villian 2's hands. And he's not allowed to show his hand while you and villian 2 are still in the pot.

And btw villian 2 was just mad that he got all his money in drawing dead, he probably put you on JJ or 10 10 and thought he was slightly better than 50% to win.

Thats what I thought about Villian 1, I stared at him in shock for a while. After the hand was over I asked him how on earth he folded a 3 there and he said I was playing too tight and knew I wouldnt go all in with nothing there. He did say if it was just me and him he would have called. He was a very good player, his only job is poker and he does pretty well in life.

He made a great fold though, he would have had the worst hand when the hand was over.
 
Genso Hikki

Genso Hikki

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Who gives a shit what he thinks?

Preflop is a little more debatable, but still fine in my book. Postflop you could go for a smaller, more enticing raise, but if you feel he's got a hand he can call with then by all means just shove it. You stacked a guy and he got mad, who cares what he says.

Exactly right. While it's true you could have chosen to slow play the hand, Chuck's right that if you can pu your opponent on a hand strong enough to call you then shoving is not a donk play at all.
 
zachvac

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You're all in bet was bad, this is a spot where you want to slowplay, smooth calling represents something like ace 9 or maybe a flush draw. Villian 1 is very aggressive so he might think both of you twos' calls meant weakness, and more importantly you have both of them drawing nearly dead. Think of it like this, imagine you were both deeper stacked and villian 2 folded his AK suited, you won a pot but if you slowplayed and let villian 2 hit his nut flush you might have win a lot more compared to shoving on the flop.
This would work as well, but a shove isn't terrible. Often you can get worse hands to call you because as villain 2 thought, you wouldn't do that with a good hand. If you play with them a lot you should mix it up, so slowplaying some and pushing some would do the trick. The OP played such to fool villain 2 into getting a bad read. That's not exactly a donk play. While I agree the more standard line would be a slowplay or smaller raise, the shove was able to get villain's money in drawing to runners.

he's not allowed to show his hand while you and villian 2 are still in the pot.
This is true, if he really plays for a living he'd know that. Showing's fine when HU or the action's done, but when there's still someone left to act you can't be mucking face up like that.
 
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brianyahrly

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This may not be the move x_cashin-X was trying to make...but his bet could pass for so ridiculous that it comes off as a bluff (which worked).

Especially if you are known to slow play/ trap you'd be suprised how often crazy bets like this get called.
 
dj11

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I'm with Chuck here. Dumb ass calls an all in with a draw and then has the audacity to rag on you! Screw him, find him whenever you can.

The all in at a cash table is probably considered bad etiquette at a club. With him just sitting down, he was hoping for a nice comfortable long stint at the table, and you allowed him to screw himself and he was taking it out on you.
 
Effexor

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I like to hear these little comments and remarks as I'm putting their money into my stack.

I had a good one about a week ago in my weekly MTT I play in live. Early in the tournament I pick up AhJh and limp in from late position. The flop comes J high with 2 hearts and I bet out, get one caller. This lady that called me was the biggest calling station I've run into in a long time. Turn was a non heart and I check, she bets and I call. River was a heart, and the board didn't pair so I've got the nuts. What to bet? She's an idiot station, so I bet out like 1.5 times the pot, like a third of her stack. She starts talking. "He doesn't have the flush. He'd never bet that much if he had the flush." etc. Finally she calls and I win an enormous pot. For the next 15 minutes she berates me for making a bad bet and being a bad player. I loved it!
 
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Dr_Dick

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Villain 2 is a true donkey for calling with a flush draw/overs...no way is this +EV, even if all you had was a 3.

But, your play was not great. You missed quite a bit of value from Villain 1 who if he was as loose/aggressive as you say, probably would have pushed harder on the turn. Villain 2 would have ended up with A high flush and you would have gotten all his money regardless of when it went in.
 
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Bentheman87

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"Villain 2 is a true donkey for calling with a flush draw/overs...no way is this +EV, even if all you had was a 3."

Why is that? He would be a true donkey if he folded. Against anything but X-3 (which you probably don't have since you called $10 preflop, only ace 3 might make this call) or pocket nines he's 50% to win.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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I'm with Chuck here. Dumb ass calls an all in with a draw

Villain 2 is a true donkey for calling with a flush draw/overs...no way is this +EV, even if all you had was a 3.


It doesn't matter if it's a draw or a made hand. Against an overpair, which was a very likely holding in this situation, he is practically even money to win and the dead money in the pot makes the call not bad. With this type of hand he would like to be the one pushing because he gets fold equity on top of the value of the hand, but this is not a horrible play.

I'm not defending the talking, but I will defend the play. I like that play better than the shoving the 2nd nuts, I'll tell you that much.
 
Tygran

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lol.. if anyone in that hand is a donkey it's the guy calling an all with just a draw as has already been said.


Granted your shove with the boat is probably not the best play, it worked and it worked because of reverse psychology. "You bet too much to actually have it, gotta call".

Doesn't change the fact that genius called with nothing but a draw.. laugh it off and move on.
 
Tygran

Tygran

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It doesn't matter if it's a draw or a made hand. Against an overpair, which was a very likely holding in this situation, he is practically even money to win and the dead money in the pot makes the call not bad. With this type of hand he would like to be the one pushing because he gets fold equity on top of the value of the hand, but this is not a horrible play.

I'm not defending the talking, but I will defend the play. I like that play better than the shoving the 2nd nuts, I'll tell you that much.


Zach thanks alot for making me dig out the calculator!

Let's just assume there's a made boat or quads 15% of the time. You are drawing completely dead. If you count 6 aces and kings + 9 hearts as outs that's 15 with 2 to go. however you can't do that necessarily.. If there is an overpair then either the overpair has a heart, reducing your outs by one, or if that particular heart hit you lose to a boat. So take one out away. To make the calculation a little simpler..I'm gonna dock one additional out for the times we are up against AA/KK/(or a random 3) and don't have the pair outs.

OK so... pot is $167 and villain 2 has to call $115. anyways we are gonna say 13 outs in best case, 0 in worst. So 13 outs with 2 to go is (13/47)+(13/46) = ~56%

So..approx EV, adjusted for the 85% chance of being against an overpair = .15(-115) + .476(167) + .374(-115) = +19.23

I could have factored in chance of a bluff and/or weaker flush draw doing this (something like Qh/Th) and it makes it more profitable. As above it's a profitable call long term if you don't think he's likely to actually have the made boat already. Unfortunately it's one of those "you win a ton or lose a ton" hands. If you have a read that adjusts the likelihood of hero shoving only with a made boat higher it becomes unprofitable. however an EV of ~$20 is a pretty solid call.


OK so I don't hate the call as much now. At certain tables/certain players odds of him having either 99 or a random 3 are probably much higher. I don't call this online hardly ever I can tell you that. At least at $25/$50 NL since people rarely bluff with draws and alot of them do have a tendency to go nuts with a made hand.

One thing isn't debatable... villain had absolutely no grounds to call the OP a donkey! :D

/edit..geez I fail at math. corrected pot size numbers.
 
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xXcRaZyBiRdXx

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Looks like you played it right. A donkey is just someone who plays the game different than yourself. Sounds like the guy was just having a bad day. TILT!ziggityziggitydingdingding.:elefant: :icon_rr: :sheep: :evil: :marchmell
 
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Dr_Dick

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"Villain 2 is a true donkey for calling with a flush draw/overs...no way is this +EV, even if all you had was a 3."

Why is that? He would be a true donkey if he folded. Against anything but X-3 (which you probably don't have since you called $10 preflop, only ace 3 might make this call) or pocket nines he's 50% to win.

There is another way to look at this...you are looking at the pre-flop action and saying your opponent does not have a 3 because of the preflop action. I am looking at the hand and saying my opponent HAS a 3 because he just pushed all-in postflop (we are both wrong). But, my logic holds, that I don't put my opponent on pushing without having a very strong hand.

I don't think a person pushes postflop with just an overpair, because of the 33 on the board, out of position, with 2 players to follow (including Villain 1 who plays loose). A person with an overpair raises the $10 bet to $30 to see if somone really has a 3, they don't push all-in. A person with a 3 pushes all-in and holding a AKs, I am on a draw.

Maybe given Villan1 inappropriately showed a 3 before mucking changes things up a bit...but I stand by my line of thought. I am not looking at the preflop action and therefore ruling out anything but A3, instead I am looking at the postflop shove and saying he HAS to have a 3 to make this move with 2 opponents that just led for $10 and called $10. He is not going to shove with an overpair.
 
pokerace3454

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major tilt there and he screw himself over with ace high that idiot on tilt :)
 
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Bentheman87

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"He is not going to shove with an overpair."

Why wouldn't he shove with an overpair? If I were villian 2 I would have put the topic creator on Ace 9, 10 10, or JJ. The pot was $30 going to the flop and TC had $115 left so a shove is really not that big of an overbet and it's a reasonable play with an overpair.
 
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Dr_Dick

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Two ways to look at the bet...Villain 1 bets $10, Villain 2 bets $10, Hero pushes $115 against a $10 bet, how is that is not an overbet? Second way is to look at the now $50 pot, even then $115 to take down $50 is a huge overbet. So I guess we disagree on what it means to overbet.

To me, the overbet in no way shape or form represents an overpair or top pair w/ A kicker. A player with JJ, TT, or A9 that makes that shove against a better and a caller into a 933 flop, what could possibly be going through his mind except that he wants to donate. Remember, he has a better and a caller...is he suppose to put both villains on having a flush draw? Should he put both villains on 88-66? Can he really rule out AA-JJ, with Villain 2 raising to $10, but slowing down when Villain 1 bets out with a possible 3? There are just so, so, so many reasons the shove to me is not representing an overpair, but that is just my opinion.

Also, as for saying Villain 2 raised so only A3 preflop is reasonable, apparently Villain 1 was not holding A3, because I seriously doubt he put our hero on a flopped full-house. So Villain 1 had to have something like 53 or 43 suited and hope to hit a flop. He did he a flop, a great flop, but when our hero pushed, he obviously thought our hero had the A3.
 
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soonerdel

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next time tell him you were busy stacking his former chips... then ask him what was it you said ?
 
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xCashin_inx

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My reasoning for pushing all in in that situation is fear of an overpair catching a better full house. If one of the players is holding 10-10 JJ QQ etc and I let them play along and they catch it there going to get all my money. If I push in that situation they would have a much harder time calling an all in with that.
 
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1122phoenix

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What you did was perfectly fine. The only bad play in poker is being PREDICTABLE. Next time, you can slow play the boat-but generally do this if your set is a higher rank than the pair on board. Villian 2 you busted out played poorly because he "chased his flush with a pair on board"-a decent player is generally not suppose to do this especially with you AI. He was drawing to runner runner kings or aces (HUGE longshot-no possiblilty of pot odds/implied odds making it worthwhile). I hope you left the table fairly soon after this because Villian 1 has a fairly good 'player profile' of you. To laydown his trip 3's-he reasoned he was beat on the flop-he may have even correctly put you on pkt 99.
 
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